Hattons Model Railways to close

[TimberValleyRailway]

Quote

What was the dispute with Bachmann?

Class 66s, I believe, but may be wrong.

 

 

[phil-b259]

27 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

What was the dispute with Bachmann?

 

Its complicated, but in essence it basically was down to Hattons developing their own product (class 66) in direct competition with Bachmann (who already had a reasonable class 66 in their range) and thus costing Bachmann sales. Bachmann therefore refused to supply Hattons.

 

Although Hattons is the only retailer to have suffered in this way despite other retailers like Kernow commissioning their own products, its important to note that none of the products Kernow chose to develop could be seen to be directly competing with a Bachmann product and as such Bachmann will have not felt threatened by such developments.

 

 

Edited February 4 by phil-b259

[Gridiron]

11 minutes ago, MikeB said:

International sales depend on the seller. I buy most of my new Swiss-outline items from Modellbahnshop Lippe, who deduct German VAT, have a standard €12.90 flat rate for shipping to the UK and use Fedex.  Fedex submit an invoice for UK VAT and their charge to me by e-mail once they have the item in their system and by paying onine there is no delay due to customs clearance etc. Order to delivery in less than a week.   Compare this to some other sellers keep the German VAT on and use DeutschePost / DHL which becomes Parcelforce or Royal Mail in the UK. Then items can sit waiting customs clearance for a week or more and the charges letter takes another week to arrive by post. 

 

i think I have had stuff from Modelibahnshop Lippe but before Brexit, but prior to Brexit DHL was the preferred carrier, but there performance like UPS immediately after Brexit was poor, which got even worse when they then subcontracted the delivery to Parcel Force or Royal Mail. The big problem here may be that DHL do not provide PF or RM with an email contact address, perhaps because it might be considered an infringement of privacy rights. As a result, the customer has to wait either try and track the parcel on either site and gain another reference to go on line to make the payment, or wait for the letter to arrive which quotes the number. It can be a very tiresome exercise.

8 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Richard Davies said that the Hattons Management could not find a way to make any bits of the business profitable.

 

I would assume that they would have looked at the option of simplifying the offer/overseas services/website as part of this 

 

 

 

Agree, that was my initial reaction, but after also listening to his two interviews and discovering the other companies, my view changed that he could have meant that the current business could not be made to be profitable in the longer term.

 

At this point we should remember that the trading company is wholly owned by a holding company which have Christine and Richard as Directors.  THE HATTON MODEL RAILWAY COMPANY LIMITED acquired 100% of the current trading company on the 15 June 2018 and the two previous companies that Richard was listed as a Director and were then liquidated. One can only assume the reason for this move was to acquire any intellectual rights or copyrights that these companies hold which may have well been used by Hattons in their trading company.

 

However, Richard also established Hattons 2 Limited on the 27 March 2015 in which Christine is listed as holding a share between 25% and 49.9% of the business. This company is independent of the holding Hattons entity and appears to have remained dormant at least up to the 31st March 2023.

 

The latest full accounts for the trading company are only available up to 30 Jun 2022 so it s not clear which of the three entities set up the US entity and then liquidated it last year just before the Klein acquisition all of which would have been a substantial hit to the business especially given the subsequent events following the announcement of the UK closing down. It would be logical to assume the holding company funded the US business which would then potentially would have allowed the Hattons trading company to continue and perhaps weather the approaching storm. However, it appears the Directors and Management finally agreed that this was not possible and took the decision to close the business whilst it was still solvent. 

Assuming this to be the case, the obvious question is what was or is the purpose of Hattons 2 Limited which is resgistered to an address in Chester. The answer is of course we don't know, and we will have to wait to see what happens with both the trading company and the holding company, whose accounts provide an interesting insight into their turnover and customer base.

 

 

Curiously it seems that Hattons had actually made Brexit a success, doubling their turnover, whilst the rest of the world sales saw a decrease of over 50% between 2021 and 2022 highlighting perhaps the amount of subsidy this portion of the business was taking. 

 

 

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, MikeB said:

I wonder if part of Hatton's demise was caused by all the IT investment?  The product database, the marketplace, trunk, wishlist, proforma for purchasing second hand items, dealing with overseas sales and the complex website were all good for customers but must have been a heavy overhead to build and maintain.  Was it too much without lots of sales from the two major UK outline suppliers?

 

 

Yes I think that alienating Bachmann totally and Hornby to some degree made a huge impact. Hard to see that 'Hattons Originals' made up the difference. Nothing particularly wrong with the models, but not selling the full range of suppliers.

How much of the physical shop at Widnes, was a necessity to keep 'a retail shop', otherwise Peco would have stopped supplying too?

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Peters Spares want a minimum GBP39.99

Wow - it's gone up by a third!

 

 

[Gridiron]

1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

@Gridiron

I like your analysis on shipping SE Asia to Europe and the ability of the shipping lines to take up slack.  

How do you see container availability in your analysis?  By my reckoning something like 20-25% additional containers are going to be needed going the long way round on this route.  Maybe other routes can make up some of the shortfall but not all.

 

I have been out of the business ten years now but after the 2009 banking crisis, the shipping lines resorted to slow steaming, which had the same impact as going via the Cape - an extra 10 to 14 days on the water.   The result was a year or more of struggling to get container availability plus augmented demurrage and detention charges.  

 

Ok a reasonably short explanation. Today there are three global alliances, or groups of the shipping lines providing services on the main east /west trades globally. On the Asia / Europe trade each of these alliance provide five or six sailings a week from about five or six ports in Asia to about four or five ports in North West Europe, The diversion around the Cape adds about eight to ten days to the voyage depending on on the service speed which can be relatively slow at 13 to 14 knots to save fuel costs. Speeding up to say 18 knots will reduce the transit times to about seven days so initially it has been a balancing act on the westbound voyages to reschedule the port calls to avoid bunching and port congestion, but typical transit times now from Yantian which is usually the last Chinese load port westbound is about 32/33 days to the first discharge NWC port. In theory each alliance therefore needs to find an extra two ships for each weekly service , so at least 20 vessels per alliance depending on the ranges served. 

 

Like after the bank 2009 the shipping lines have resorted to all sorts of policies to keep their services sustainable, including slow steaming as I have indicated above, but also blanking sailings on some weeks, like over Chinese New Year or even cancelling some services for a limited period of time. These step the lines argue as necessary because of the slow down in demand and a huge glut of spare capacity in the marketplace, but one the problems it creates is shortages of equipment  in some locations so you end up with a huge surplus of empties in the wrong place.

 

During the Covid peak there were times when UK Ports were storing so many empty units that the ports, particularly Felixstowe and Southampton refused to take the empties back. This problem was caused because the ships when they arrived carried substantially more units than normal for discharge and that combined with the Covid working measures meant the berthing windows were insufficient for the ship to exchange the full complement of eastbound units, so the empties got left behind. In order to solve this problem the Chinese government order their factories to churn out huge numbers of new containers which were lapped up by the shipping and container leasing companies which resulted in even more containers being left behind is western ports, in Los Angeles/Long Beach ships were queuing for up to 30 days for a berth to discharge /load  during the worst of Covid pandemic because the terminals simply ran out of space to land containers. 

 

As volumes have returned to precovid levels the shipping lines have been trying to return as many leased containers back to the leasing companies or sell off older units due for certification so that inventory levels matched the demands of the market place with some additional capacity available to support all the newbuilds due to enter service over the next two to three years. MSC for example has at least a  new 15000 plus up to 24000 teu vessel due to enter service every month for the next two or three years. 24000 teu is fast becoming the normal size for vessels on Asia /Europe services, which smaller ships now being cascaded to other trades for example Indian Subcontinent /Middle East/ Europe  were the majority of the services are operated outside the global alliances so therefore need each individual line to plug the gaps. It's also important to remember that all the alliances also service the Mediterranean trades to and from Asia, India Subcontinent /Middle trades and East and West Africa often as wayport calls and/or via transhipment via south Europe hubs at Valencia, Algeciras and Tangier requiring even more capacity.

 

Another problem is the lack of rain in Panama, which has resulted in the lakes in the middle of the canal seeing lower water levels in the canal. The Panama Canal authority has been limiting the number of transit over recent months which has lead to congestion for vessel wishing to use the Canal so the lines serving the  Asia to US Gulf and East coast ports had rerouted many services via Suez but with the effective closure of the route the lines have had no alternative but reroute these services via the Cape eating up even more capacity. All these demands have forced the lines to rejig many services and provide additional loaders to and from some ports which previously saw direct calls dropping of surplus capacity to the port to sustain the local demand for empty equipment. 

 

So give a short answer to your original question, the answer as Eric Morecambe might describe is that the there is no shortage of equipment, it's just that is now no longer in the right place.  The shipping lines have now had a month to make the changes so any initial shortages of equipment should largely be resolved in the next two to three weeks and then the situation should start to stabilise and with the shipping lines planning now for a long term disruption it could the present service patterns will remain in place until the end of the year when the next major changes come into effect when Maersk and MSC spilt from their agreement and Maersk are joined by Hapag Lloyd in their new global alliance. This will inevitably result in numerous changes to schedules which are likely to be made more complicated with present disruption.

[sandwich station]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Its complicated, but in essence it basically was down to Hattons developing their own product (class 66) in direct competition with Bachmann (who already had a reasonable class 66 in their range) and thus costing Bachmann sales. Bachmann therefore refused to supply Hattons.

 

Although Hattons is the only retailer to have suffered in this way despite other retailers like Kernow commissioning their own products, its important to note that none of the products Kernow chose to develop could be seen to be directly competing with a Bachmann product and as such Bachmann will have not felt threatened by such developments.

 

 

 

I think you will find that Kernows locomotives are either made by Bachmann or Heljan.

[jjb1970]

Kernow clearly have a special relationship with Bachmann, as well as commissioning special releases from them using Bachmann tooling there is also the arrangement via EFE in which Kernow owned tooling is distributed by Bachmann. From a business perspective, working with one of the biggest actors in the space and maintaining a good relationship would seem very sensible in the case of a model retailer.

[AY Mod]

2 hours ago, sandwich station said:

 

I think you will find that Kernows locomotives are either made by Bachmann or Heljan.

 

Incorrect.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, sandwich station said:

 

I think you will find that Kernows locomotives are either made by Bachmann or Heljan.

 

WRONG!

 

Bachmanns only involvement with Kernows models* is that in recent times Bachmann have distributed some of Kernows models through the EFE brand**.

 

Kernow have never had anything made any of their own designs made for them by Heljan either.

 

 

 

* According to Bachmann own PR they have 'invested' in the SR Booster locomotives but whether that is in terms of actually helping finance the product or merely in terms of distributing it through the EFE brand is unknown

 

** EFE models are NOT made by Bachmann! The whole point is EFE models originate in factories outside of the Kadder organisation (Bachmanns owners) and thus cannot be released as Bachmnann products.

 

[PetersSpares]

16 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

 

I will agree, that no retailer could possibly hope to compete with eBay in terms of volume and selection.  The problem is us oversea modelers get absolutely shafted by exorbitant shipping fees, or the seller just not posting overseas in the first place.

 

As this is a picture of my items I felt the need to add a comment. eBay shipping is a nightmare we can either make everyone pay for each item separately or make people await an invoice. I don't like to o that so we let people combine however eBay has no way of combining items and assigning correct postage appropriate to weight and size. They also take 15% fees from any postage price we add to the site. This is why we have a higher flat rate up to 2kg on ebay. 

 

The best thing to do is DON'T buy from ebay come to our website www.petersspares.com and get the item cheaper than RRP and cheaper postage. It's that simple.

 

Thanks Peter

 

Peters Spares Model Railways Ltd.

 

[PetersSpares]

13 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

You've never had to use the Global Shipping Program, have you? For a typical second-hand item, it typically results in a cost about three times the price of the actual item.

 

That's not a great example, because if you order direct from that supplier they charge a MINIMUM GBP30.00 for overseas shipment, which is what I think you can see there (ordinary post, not the GSP).

 

As this is a picture of my items I felt the need to add a comment. eBay shipping is a nightmare we can either make everyone pay for each item separately or make people await an invoice. I don't like to o that so we let people combine however eBay has no way of combining items and assigning correct postage appropriate to weight and size. They also take 15% fees from any postage price we add to the site. This is why we have a higher flat rate up to 2kg on ebay. 

 

The best thing to do is DON'T buy from ebay come to our website www.petersspares.com and get the item cheaper than RRP and cheaper postage. It's that simple. (We do not charge £30 via our website for small items.)

 

Thanks Peter

 

Peters Spares Model Railways Ltd.

[adb968008]

Theres a few models that Hattons made that have fallen through the cracks of discussion…
 

Oxford Rail ICI wagons

Dapol 10000/1

DJM 14xx

 

I’d imagine the ici would return easily enough, I wonder the others.

[Hobby]

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

They haven't failed.  They're just pulling out of the market.  They're still solvent.

 

11 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

Richard Davies said that the Hattons Management could not find a way to make any bits of the business profitable.

 

?

 

Or does it just mean that their assets exceeded their debts...

Edited February 5 by Hobby

[adb968008]

28 minutes ago, PetersSpares said:

 

As this is a picture of my items I felt the need to add a comment. eBay shipping is a nightmare we can either make everyone pay for each item separately or make people await an invoice. I don't like to o that so we let people combine however eBay has no way of combining items and assigning correct postage appropriate to weight and size. They also take 15% fees from any postage price we add to the site. This is why we have a higher flat rate up to 2kg on ebay. 

 

The best thing to do is DON'T buy from ebay come to our website www.petersspares.com and get the item cheaper than RRP and cheaper postage. It's that simple. (We do not charge £30 via our website for small items.)

 

Thanks Peter

 

Peters Spares Model Railways Ltd.

Taking the above two items in the picture, and putting into the ebay basket, and the peterspares website basket, putting in shipping to your address and using the cheapest postage… I seem to get a different answer to yours…

 

indeed with ebay I get  combined first class postage, with the second free..

 

I have to be honest I am confused buying from your site or using the ebay site and needed to pick / chose the better route to buy because of anomalies like the ones highlighted.

 

Maybe you can check if somethings wrong ?

 

 

 

Edited February 5 by adb968008

[GWR-fan]

26 minutes ago, PetersSpares said:

 

..................................................................(We do not charge £30 via our website for small items.)

 

Thanks Peter

 

Peters Spares Model Railways Ltd.

 

Peter,

            perhaps true for UK deliveries but this is a direct copy from your store website. 

 

"Worldwide £0.00 up to £100.00 £39.99 By Royal Mail tracked Airmail service. Orders between £100.01 - £500.00 by tracked Airmail £39.99"

[St Enodoc]

14 minutes ago, PetersSpares said:

We do not charge £30 via our website for small items.

Well, that's what I was quoted a year or two ago for an order consisting of a few small, lightweight, items. However, I've just created a dummy order for some Bachmann coach wheels (GBP 13.32 excl VAT) that shows a much lower shipping cost (also GBP 13.32, as it happens), which is better. Thanks.

 

I agree with you regarding multiple items on eBay, with or without the GSP!

[PetersSpares]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Taking the above two items in the picture, and putting into the ebay basket, and the peterspares website basket, putting in shipping to your address and using the cheapest postage… I seem to get a different answer to yours…

 

indeed with ebay I get  first class postage !

 

I have to be honest I am confused buying from your site or using the ebay site and needed to pick / chose the better route to buy because of anomalies like the ones highlighted.

 

Maybe you can check if somethings wrong ?

 

 

There are no anomalies. On ebay UK postage we can stipulate postage on each item as large letter or box price or courier. Our website doesn't know sizes so starts at £3.99 2nd class £5.00 1st class then courier and special delivery on large heavy or flammable items.

 

You will see I was commenting on the complications of overseas postage but you are commenting on UK postage. 

 

Thanks Peter 

 

 

[PetersSpares]

2 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Well, that's what I was quoted a year or two ago for an order consisting of a few small, lightweight, items. However, I've just created a dummy order for some Bachmann coach wheels (GBP 13.32 excl VAT) that shows a much lower shipping cost (also GBP 13.32, as it happens), which is better. Thanks.

 

I agree with you regarding multiple items on eBay, with or without the GSP!

 

Thanks for taking the time to check it out, allot happens in a year. Even Hatton's closing.  We do try our best with shipping but it is so complicated if the site doesn't understand size and weight and the investment to get it to is eye watering against the amount of overseas sales it would benefit. Thanks Peter 

[PetersSpares]

7 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

 

Peter,

            perhaps true for UK deliveries but this is a direct copy from your store website. 

 

"Worldwide £0.00 up to £100.00 £39.99 By Royal Mail tracked Airmail service. Orders between £100.01 - £500.00 by tracked Airmail £39.99"

 

I haven't changed the wording yet as we are trialling prices in the cart and seeing what people purchase at what weights. When we have worked this out fully the wording will be altered so if you try a fake order you will see postage is cheaper. Thanks Peter  

[Wilton 34041]

49 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Taking the above two items in the picture, and putting into the ebay basket, and the peterspares website basket, putting in shipping to your address and using the cheapest postage… I seem to get a different answer to yours…

 

indeed with ebay I get  combined first class postage, with the second free..

 

I have to be honest I am confused buying from your site or using the ebay site and needed to pick / chose the better route to buy because of anomalies like the ones highlighted.

 

Maybe you can check if somethings wrong ?

 

 

 

I have found the postage on Peters site dearer than the eBay equivalent.

I recently went to purchase two small items that Peters home website wanted to charge me £5.00 postage for, so I went to the Peters eBay and paid the same price for the items but £2.50 postage - second item free post. I know about eBay fees so how come inhouse postage is dearer when expenses / fees should be less? I'd rather buy inhouse when I can.

Phil B.

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Theres a few models that Hattons made that have fallen through the cracks of discussion…
 

Oxford Rail ICI wagons

Dapol 10000/1

DJM 14xx

 

I’d imagine the ici would return easily enough, I wonder the others.

 

Perhaps the definition of "made" needs clarifying. 

 

AFAIK, with the exception of Bachmann who are part of Kader and thus use the Kader factory for their own branded products, the other UK RTR "manufacturers" use factories which they don't own, in China and other eastern countries. So there are in effect, "commissioners"of products, being involved in the design and development, rather than owners of manufacturing facilities. Who owns the tooling will depend on the contract between the commissioner and the factory. It could therefore be that some Hattons "products" could reappear, the rights having been sold on.

[GWR-fan]

33 minutes ago, PetersSpares said:

 

I haven't changed the wording yet as we are trialling prices in the cart and seeing what people purchase at what weights. When we have worked this out fully the wording will be altered so if you try a fake order you will see postage is cheaper. Thanks Peter  

 

Peter,

           many thanks,  however,  the "current" stated postage cost for worldwide is a definite turn off to a potential worldwide customer who may be none the wiser as to the new process being trialled.  Hopefully,  the possible revised postage cost will make it more attractive to those who wish to use your site in the future.  I purchased a lot of spares pre-covid,  however, the massive spike in shipping cost during covid made purchasing spare parts uneconomical.

[PetersSpares]

1 hour ago, GWR-fan said:

 

Peter,

           many thanks,  however,  the "current" stated postage cost for worldwide is a definite turn off to a potential worldwide customer who may be none the wiser as to the new process being trialled.  Hopefully,  the possible revised postage cost will make it more attractive to those who wish to use your site in the future.  I purchased a lot of spares pre-covid,  however, the massive spike in shipping cost during covid made purchasing spare parts uneconomical.

 

During covid there were less commercial planes taking goods overseas and more surcharges we had to cater for. Thanks Peter 

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

AFAIK, with the exception of Bachmann who are part of Kader and thus use the Kader factory for their own branded products, the other UK RTR "manufacturers" use factories which they don't own, in China and other eastern countries. So there are in effect, "commissioners"of products, being involved in the design and development, rather than owners of manufacturing facilities. Who owns the tooling will depend on the contract between the commissioner and the factory. It could therefore be that some Hattons "products" could reappear, the rights having been sold on.

 

I'd be surprised if the Hattons models don't re-appear at some point (noting the 66 is already scheduled to return for AS). The tooling will have a value, and I'm guessing they're assets Hattons could either sell, license to someone else or re-use themselves via a new phoenix company. And there is the possibility it may be owned by a factory with some exclusivity agreement that would release the factory to use it after expiry.

Edited February 5 by jjb1970