Carriage of livestock by train

[jim.snowdon]

There is a view in circulation amongst railway modellers that it was a requirement, if not a BoT requirement, that vehicles carrying livestock, especially in freight trains, should be coupled immediately behind the locomotive so as to reduce shocks to the occupants. It certainly seems plausible, and would be consistent with many livestock wagons being equipped with screw couplings and vacuum brakes/through pipes. 
 

The question is was this ever set out in the railways rules or general appendices? 

[Aire Head]

The requirement in the general appendix is that vehicles carrying livestock should be marshalled in the location that requires the least shunting.

[Cwmtwrch]

Leaving aside SCVs and Horse Boxes, whch were passenger rated stock anyway, it was not unknown for VB/VP goods stock, most often, but not exclusively, cattle vans and vanfits, to be attached to passenger trains, so such vehicles were commonly fitted with screw couplings, or, on the GWR and BR, with Instanters.

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

The requirement in the general appendix is that vehicles carrying livestock should be marshalled in the location that requires the least shunting.

The BR Rulebook states that unnecessary shunting must be avoided, and when requisite must be done as gently as possible [Rule 171] and that loose shunting of vehicles containing livestock should be avoided as far as possible, but is permitted when absolutely necessary, provided the brake is in good order and the guard or shunter controls the movement [Rule 110].

 

There was 1927 legislation requiring railway companies to provide water if animals were in transit for long periods, and the companies chose to provide food at the same time. This was done by parking the wagon at a suitable location with the appropriate facilities, so it was necessary to bear this possibility in mind when making up a train.

[The Stationmaster]

WR 1960 Instructions = vehicles to be marshalled to ensure minimum of movements to detach unless vacuum braked in which case the continuous brake must be connected to the engine  (which meant they had to be in the fitted section, not immediately next to the engine).  Loose shunting of loaded livestock vehicles strictly prohibited.

[LMS2968]

I still have my notes from when I did my guards training way back in 1973, and even that late we covered livestock working as below. Note it states,". . . usually marshalled next to the loco."

 

 

[Compound2632]

In 1892 the Midland fitted 250 cattle wagons - about 17% - with screw couplings, Then in 1901 the remainder were so equipped "as soon as possible" - which suggests to me that screw couplings for cattle wagons had been made mandatory, if not by the BoT then by the RCH General Managers' or Goods Managers' Committee.

 

There are plenty of photos of cattle wagons at the head of goods trains but the problem with this as evidence is that there aren't the same number of photographs of the middle or rear of goods trains. For some obscure reason, photographers always seem to have found the front of a train the most interesting and photogenic bit!

[TheQ]

Dog compartments were fitted to guards vans, which if course were at the back of the train.

[Aire Head]

On 09/01/2024 at 17:42, Cwmtwrch said:

The BR Rulebook states that unnecessary shunting must be avoided, and when requisite must be done as gently as possible [Rule 171]

 

LMS 1937 General Appendix states as follows

 

 

None of the later supplements I have of which the last is dated 1957 makes any amendment to this instruction.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Aire Head said:

LMS 1937 General Appendix states as follows

 

If loaded cattle wagons were bound for the nth station the local goods train visited, this would logically require that the cattle wagons were placed after the wagons for the (n-1)th station, so one ought to expect them to appear anywhere in the train, not only at the front. Loaded cattle wagons collected at the nth station might well be at the front, until departure from the (n+1)th station.

[kevinlms]

Livestock wagons, could of course appear anywhere convenient on a train, if they were empty!

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

If loaded cattle wagons were bound for the nth station the local goods train visited, this would logically require that the cattle wagons were placed after the wagons for the (n-1)th station, so one ought to expect them to appear anywhere in the train, not only at the front. Loaded cattle wagons collected at the nth station might well be at the front, until departure from the (n+1)th station.

 

Thinking about how cattle vans are often at the front the thought occured to me that for good trains that are not stopping to shunt and working between two sorting yard like the majority of trains were. Having the cattle wagons at the front would be advantageous in that when reaching the destination the cattle wagons could be removed first in order for the cattle to be livestock to be cared and also reducing the amount of shunting that would be undertaken with them.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Thinking about how cattle vans are often at the front the thought occured to me that for good trains that are not stopping to shunt and working between two sorting yard like the majority of trains were. Having the cattle wagons at the front would be advantageous in that when reaching the destination the cattle wagons could be removed first in order for the cattle to be livestock to be cared and also reducing the amount of shunting that would be undertaken with them.

They'd also be there if they werte fitted and there were no other fitted wagons in the train or probably therem,depending on marshalling requirements, if they were part of the fitted head.

 

So look how this train would have appeared at various stgaes in it sjourney

7.40 pm Class C Bristol East Depot - Paddington

Engine (DX), Paddington Vacuum

Acton Vacuum (excluding Maiden Lane Cattle0

Maiden Lane Cattle vacuum

Maiden Lane Cattle non-vacuum

Old Oak Common non-vacuum

Paddington non-vacuum

 

Working at Bath - to attach behind Paddington vacuum wagons on atrain at one shunt Paddngton vac, Old Oak Common vac,

Acton vac. Traffic attached at Thingley Jcn to be marshalled as train.

Load leaving Thingley Jcn  62 wagons Class 3 traffic, no traffic stop then until Acton.

 

The marshalling leaving Acton would therefore  be -

Engine

Paddington vacuum

Old Oak Common vaccum

Old oak Common non vacuum

Paddington non vacuum

 

So depending on where any cattle wagons were leaving East Depot (if there were any) they would have been further from the enmgine on leaving Bath and possibly (but unlikely) further again leaving Thing;ey Jcn.

 

Note 'Engine (DX)' means a Power CLass D engine with a white painted letter X above the RA/Power disc marking.

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

They'd also be there if they werte fitted and there were no other fitted wagons in the train

 

But surely in that case the train would be run as unfitted and the cattle wagons not connected up. 

[The Johnster]

For a branch pickup goods, yes, it would run unfitted with the vacuum bags not connected, but for main line running, the vacuum would be connected and the cattle wagons used as a fitted head or part of the fitted head, even if they were empty.  You used whatever fitted wagons were available in the fitted head, not the minimum for the class of train.  Instanter couplings throughout the train in the shortened position, though the cattle wagons had screw couplings, tightened to give a better ride for the beasts.  Screw couplings were to be tightened so that the buffer heads of adjoining wagons 'kissed', which on straight track was so that two threads were visible each side of the bottle.  I know there's really only one helical thread, but you know what I mean... If you were coupling on a curve, you sometimes had to perform an 'ease up' movement to enable this to be achieved, with the handbrake applied to the wagon the loco was pushing against.

[The Stationmaster]

54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But surely in that case the train would be run as unfitted and the cattle wagons not connected up. 

No the GWR Instruction (lesser railways might have been different) was that fitted carttle wagons were to be connected to the engine (i.e. to the vacuum bt rake system.  It might possibly have been ignored on short distance freight trips but don;t forget teh animals would get a smoother ride (in some respects) if the continuous brake was used.

 

BUt don't forget that the Marshalling Instructrions, just like Passenger Coaching Stock workings, could over-rule the Appendix Instruction.  Thus one of the Class C trains shown to convey 'livestock'. (note, not 'cattle') on the Western in the Winter of 1948 had  Acton Livestock marshalled behind Acton non-vac.  (although it was the only listed Class C train from the West of England shown to convey livestock/cattle which showed the wagons in a non-vac portion).

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

but for main line running, the vacuum would be connected and the cattle wagons used as a fitted head or part of the fitted head, even if they were empty.  You used whatever fitted wagons were available in the fitted head, not the minimum for the class of train

 

I see this often stated but frankly the evidence does not bear this out. Enough photographs of goods trains exist showing trains which have fitted stock running as Unfitted in trains with no fitted head. Even photos of trains with fitted vehicle behind the loco is no guarantor of the actually being connected. The practice from the 1970s is different to practice from even a decade before.

[Steamport Southport]

6 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

I see this often stated but frankly the evidence does not bear this out. Enough photographs of goods trains exist showing trains which have fitted stock running as Unfitted in trains with no fitted head. Even photos of trains with fitted vehicle behind the loco is no guarantor of the actually being connected. The practice from the 1970s is different to practice from even a decade before.

 

Might be worth looking at what loco is pulling those trains where they are mixed. If the loco is unfitted then no point in putting the fitted stock directly behind it!

 

And plenty of unfitted goods engines lasted until virtually the end of steam.

 

 

Jason

[Aire Head]

32 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Might be worth looking at what loco is pulling those trains where they are mixed. If the loco is unfitted then no point in putting the fitted stock directly behind it!

 

 

There is plenty of evidence out there of fitted stock behind unfitted on freight trains running on mainlines.

 

 

Also a nice shot of cattle vans not at the front while carrying livestock albeit they are in what could be the fitted portion of the train. 

[LMS2968]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You used whatever fitted wagons were available in the fitted head, not the minimum for the class of train.

I can only assume that you did things differently in South Wales to us Northerners! If the WWT called for four wagons as the fitted head, that's what was bagged up, whatever was behind them. Getting carried away and piping up a whole lot of extras was likely to incur the wrath of the shunters when you arrived at your destination. It wasn't just a matter of their having to go between to unhook but they'd also have to pull the strings to allow any further shunting or remarshalling. They objected to being kept away from the teapot for so long.

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

Also a nice shot of cattle vans not at the front while carrying livestock albeit they are in what could be the fitted portion of the train. 

They may be, or may not be; it's a "Maltese Cross" train, less than one third with continuous brake, but four connected to the engine with brake in use [I assume that this is a minimum and more is acceptable, so they probably are?]. The 4F in BR days is on a class 8, so no automatic brake.

The logic of increasing the number of fitted vehicles is that there can be more fully or partially fitted trains, which can run faster, but it will also result in more fitted vehicles in trains where there is no need to connect the vacuum pipes as the class of train doesn't require it. 

 

[Ian Rathbone]

I remember, at spotting session at Crewe in the late fifties, seeing a calf in a sack being loaded into the brake van of a passenger train. 
 

Ian R

[hmrspaul]

5 minutes ago, Ian Rathbone said:

I remember, at spotting session at Crewe in the late fifties, seeing a calf in a sack being loaded into the brake van of a passenger train. 
 

Ian R

That is the correct way to carry a calf. I saw similar, one on a platform truck at Derby c1966. 

 

This discussion appears to overlook that unfitted cattle wagons were common until the 1950s. 

 

There is a full BR booklet on livestock. They must have been very happy to lose this traffic, very complex to operate. 

 

Paul

[The Johnster]

On the subject of livestock, coming home from Portmadoc (period spelling) after a couple weeks volunteering on the Festiniog (period spelling) in August 1969, had an hour or so to kill at Salop waiting for a Cardiff train.  In one of the south end island platform bays was a rake of three GUVs, all in virtually ex-works rail blue livery, containing pigs.  Squealing loadly and stinking, something to stay upwind of.  This was I'm sure an unusual thing, as GUVs are not particularly suitable for carrying livestock having no slurry drainage provision, and I never saw anything like this ever again, or beforehand for that matter.  TTBOMK pigs were transported by rail in cattle wagons normally, though I have heard of prize pigs being carried in Beetles.

 

Working passenger trains in the 70s, I would sometimes encounter greyhounds in the brake van, leashes tied solidly.  Lovely things, gentle and appreciative of a bit of a fuss and a biscuit, wouldn't mind a retired one as a pet if I ever had the space they need.  Day-old chicks going cheep in cardboard trays were a regular thing as well.  Best livestock of all, though, was an elderly Chinese lady. 

 

There was in those day, and perhaps still is, a sizeable Chinese community living in Treforest.  The lady in question was given into my care one evening on platform 6 at Cardiff Central, and was travelling from a village in the Hong Kong New Territories to her family in Treforest, but spoke no English whatsoever.  Somebody had made a luggage label which was around her neck with the complete itenerary; bus from her village into HK, out to the airport, transfers at Heathrow-Reading for the run down to Cardiff, and, with all having gone to plan, my train for the last leg, there was a deputation waiting for her on the platform at Treforest.

 

She could have been anything from 60 to 600 years old, wrinkled, stooped, skeletal, and tiny; a decent breeze would have taken her straight back home.  But she was absolutely delightful, smilling and laughing at everyone and everything and thoroughly enjoying her adventure!  Week or so later there was a letter for me when I booked on, saying that she'd been treated with enormous kindness and generosity all the way from New Territories, plied with cigarettes (I smoked a pipe in those days and gave her a fill of my baccy in her clay pipe), sweets, cakes, buns, drinks, and general bonhomie.  She'd had the time of her life, and I was delighted to have played a small part in it!

 

Sometimes, admittedly nowhere near often enough but sometimes, humanity is not completely bad...

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

On the subject of livestock, coming home from Portmadoc (period spelling) after a couple weeks volunteering on the Festiniog (period spelling) in August 1969, had an hour or so to kill at Salop waiting for a Cardiff train.  In one of the south end island platform bays was a rake of three GUVs, all in virtually ex-works rail blue livery, containing pigs.  Squealing loadly and stinking, something to stay upwind of.  This was I'm sure an unusual thing, as GUVs are not particularly suitable for carrying livestock having no slurry drainage provision, and I never saw anything like this ever again, or beforehand for that matter.  TTBOMK pigs were transported by rail in cattle wagons normally, though I have heard of prize pigs being carried in Beetles.

 

There is the tale of the pigs at Newton Abbott or some such deeply Great Western place, that due to shortage of stock were transported in the groom's compartment of a horsebox. By some oversight, they were left there overnight. In the morning they were discovered to have eaten all the stuffing out of the seats. The staff had some explaining to do to the C&W dept.

[C126]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

On the subject of livestock, coming home from Portmadoc (period spelling) after a couple weeks volunteering on the Festiniog (period spelling) in August 1969, had an hour or so to kill at Salop waiting for a Cardiff train.  In one of the south end island platform bays was a rake of three GUVs, all in virtually ex-works rail blue livery, containing pigs.  Squealing loadly and stinking, something to stay upwind of.  This was I'm sure an unusual thing, as GUVs are not particularly suitable for carrying livestock having no slurry drainage provision, and I never saw anything like this ever again, or beforehand for that matter.  TTBOMK pigs were transported by rail in cattle wagons normally, though I have heard of prize pigs being carried in Beetles.

 

Working passenger trains in the 70s, I would sometimes encounter greyhounds in the brake van, leashes tied solidly.  Lovely things, gentle and appreciative of a bit of a fuss and a biscuit, wouldn't mind a retired one as a pet if I ever had the space they need.  Day-old chicks going cheep in cardboard trays were a regular thing as well.  Best livestock of all, though, was an elderly Chinese lady. 

 

There was in those day, and perhaps still is, a sizeable Chinese community living in Treforest.  The lady in question was given into my care one evening on platform 6 at Cardiff Central, and was travelling from a village in the Hong Kong New Territories to her family in Treforest, but spoke no English whatsoever.  Somebody had made a luggage label which was around her neck with the complete itenerary; bus from her village into HK, out to the airport, transfers at Heathrow-Reading for the run down to Cardiff, and, with all having gone to plan, my train for the last leg, there was a deputation waiting for her on the platform at Treforest.

 

She could have been anything from 60 to 600 years old, wrinkled, stooped, skeletal, and tiny; a decent breeze would have taken her straight back home.  But she was absolutely delightful, smilling and laughing at everyone and everything and thoroughly enjoying her adventure!  Week or so later there was a letter for me when I booked on, saying that she'd been treated with enormous kindness and generosity all the way from New Territories, plied with cigarettes (I smoked a pipe in those days and gave her a fill of my baccy in her clay pipe), sweets, cakes, buns, drinks, and general bonhomie.  She'd had the time of her life, and I was delighted to have played a small part in it!

 

Sometimes, admittedly nowhere near often enough but sometimes, humanity is not completely bad...

 

What a delightful, heart-warming tale that is, @The Johnster .  Perhaps you have not depleted your sources for more tales yet...

 

 

Edited January 12 by C126
Added link to 'Confessions'.