Middle sized city station plan - 13ft by 8ft

[RobinofLoxley]

Two things @DavidB-AU - access to the fiddle yard for clockwise traffic involves crossing the anticlockwise line twice. The dead end sidings were envisaged to be for freight, so have to be the other way around so as not to trap the loco. So it doesnt flip in my opinion. Some crossing lines always happens with this design but its worse if flipped. Still its a quite a common thing...

8 hours ago, Curlew said:

Aren't the tracks to Piccadilly signalled for bi-directional running?

Signalled both ways on Raildar. Now Oxford Road doesnt seem to be operational there but the lines up to Piccadilly are; I watched it on and off on my phone all day yesterday (fascinating, like a real life Trainplayer) and there were no wrong line movements; same on the Piccadilly approaches. Doesnt mean it doesn't happen. But then OpenTrainTimes shows something different, I wonder where the data comes from in each case.

 

14 hours ago, Danfilm007 said:

Thank you for your advice and plan, it looks great! It is a good idea so I'll have to go away and mock it up in my template. Does feel like I am getting closer to a resolved layout and your advice and others is handy. Fiddle yards etc are easy enough to design, I haven't really iterated on it as I wanted to get the layout to flow nicely. It isn't critical to have the second turnback, as you say, it isn't really used much whereas the ones in Deansgate are used a lot.

 

The island platforms generally can squeeze in a 6 car train - from some testing videos, a 68 and set of Mk5as really dominate the island platform. There is a prototype for everything, even trains the same length of the platform!

Thanks, its basically your plan sorted out, but do take care over the fiddle yard its as important as the visible section - its half the layout after all.

 

While I remember, the platform 5 line provides an opportunity to add and remove stock via a cassette system.

[Danfilm007]

I've taken some inspiration from your plans Robin and the advice of others, so please see the new attachment! I haven't updated the fiddle yard yet but I have one or two ideas. And yes, my top crossover is still there!!

 

I think in the examples previously given there was through running from Platform 1 to Piccadilly so wrong line running does happen and at the least there is a way of switching on either end.

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by Danfilm007

[Danfilm007]

On the point of fiddle yards, I took some inspiration from an online fiddle yard model, this seems to be a bit more flexible? 6 roads in the middle and two continuous outer loops for running. Seems a bit tight but maybe also quite efficient? All the radius are 20/21" to make it a bit less tight!

[Happy Hippo]

Just going to lob a stick grenade into the room:

 

Think how much more storage space you'd get if you used a traverser.

[Harlequin]

11 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Just going to lob a stick grenade into the room:

 

Think how much more storage space you'd get if you used a traverser.

A traverser in the running lines of a roundy-round layout requires absolute 100% precise alignment and for the operator to stop using it and make sure it's aligned to one or two empty roads whenever running trains are approaching.

They don't mix very well, IMHO.

 

[Danfilm007]

28 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Just going to lob a stick grenade into the room:

 

Think how much more storage space you'd get if you used a traverser.

 

Interesting idea, I imagine it's simpler to run etc! Have thought of them or cassettes on terminus layouts but never a roundy roundy. As Harlequin says it is a big risk. At least this way, there is plenty of storage for units and freight, plus run round options while leaving trains running (although it does mean you could knock items off the bottom running line...) 

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, Danfilm007 said:

On the point of fiddle yards, I took some inspiration from an online fiddle yard model, this seems to be a bit more flexible? 6 roads in the middle and two continuous outer loops for running. Seems a bit tight but maybe also quite efficient? All the radius are 20/21" to make it a bit less tight!

 

Personally, I'd use a 3-way point at each end of the fiddle yard to save space.

[Happy Hippo]

But if you combine the traverser avoiding lines previously suggested, and then use the branches off the avoiding lines to serve the traverser for terminations of slow speed trains that should negate any horror issues.  Traversers work well with planned and scheduled running where one has an operating schedule.  Once you go down the ad hoc route of running trains as you feel without any forethought then, welcome to trouble.

 

The late Iain Rice also advocated vertical traversers, which combined with the through running  avoiding lines, also saved a lot of horizontal space.

 

Another of his ploys, rather than a full double junction was a leading crossover that incorporated a single slip to allow trains on the down line to access the up and vice versa.

 

With all the trackage and point work in the fiddle yard, why not make the fiddle yard a proper scenic marshalling yard in it's own right?

[Danfilm007]

33 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

But if you combine the traverser avoiding lines previously suggested, and then use the branches off the avoiding lines to serve the traverser for terminations of slow speed trains that should negate any horror issues.  Traversers work well with planned and scheduled running where one has an operating schedule.  Once you go down the ad hoc route of running trains as you feel without any forethought then, welcome to trouble.

 

The late Iain Rice also advocated vertical traversers, which combined with the through running  avoiding lines, also saved a lot of horizontal space.

 

Another of his ploys, rather than a full double junction was a leading crossover that incorporated a single slip to allow trains on the down line to access the up and vice versa.

 

With all the trackage and point work in the fiddle yard, why not make the fiddle yard a proper scenic marshalling yard in it's own right?

 

All good thoughts - I liked the idea of Bradfield Gloucester Square where you had the carriage sidings too (I can't remember the name of the Northern modern image layout which had one plus a station too, it is on here, really wonderful layout!) but I think if this was going to be my first "proper" layout in my own space, keep things simple where possible.

 

The slip sounds interesting - you may have noticed but I had one in the scenic section many iterations ago but that is a long time ago now. In a fiddle yard potentially less problematic? I am still conscious that I have 3rd or 4th radius turns which are nice but not super generous and if I ran IEPs or Mk5s then it could cause some issues?

[Harlequin]

I'm worried about the storage capacity in your fiddle yard - 6 loops probably isn't going to be enough. The current design is also not using the space very efficiently. There are long leads into the storage loops and some of those loops are very short.

 

I think I've worked out a way to give you a fiddle yard that has 2 through routes, 8 storage loops, every loop long enough to store a 5 car train or longer and only using a couple of short sections of track down to R3 radius.

 

It was a real challenge and although I think I've proved it will work I still need to draw it properly. It's going to look slightly crazed! Watch this space...

 

Edited January 13 by Harlequin

[Curlew]

Would be so much easier to fit everything in if you tried it in N gauge. Sorry I had to mention it 👿

[Michael Hodgson]

18 hours ago, Harlequin said:

A traverser in the running lines of a roundy-round layout requires absolute 100% precise alignment and for the operator to stop using it and make sure it's aligned to one or two empty roads whenever running trains are approaching.

They don't mix very well, IMHO.

 

Agreed, but the Nelevator concept should be better at coping with alignment.  Pity it didn't get very far.

 

As for making sure it's aligned to an empty road when a train's approaching, that either down to the fiddle yard operator if you're doing it manually, or it can be automated if you're running DCC with one of the train control software packages.

 

Where a  conventional pointwork fiddle yard is used, you do have the advantage that a train can depart from one loop whilst another is entering another - as long as you don't put too much stock on the layout!

[Harlequin]

Here's my idea for an improved fiddle yard:

 

• The storage loops (blue 1-8) are all set up as trailing crossovers so a train in any loop can leave in either direction on the correct line.
• The shortest loops (2 & 3) are 1667mm long between turnouts, enough for a 5 car train and clearance at both ends.
• The longest loop (8) is 2167mm long but the usable length would be restricted in practice by the nearby R3 curve.
• The two through routes are very smooth apart from a short section of R3 radius (red) in each.
• The through routes encounter all the loop turnouts in the trailing direction. Only the loop entry crossovers are facing.
• Turnouts are all Streamline Medium (brown) and Curved (green).
• There's room in the top left corner for further storage spurs if needed.
• FY baseboard width is 650mm so there are no reach problems.
• One entry crossover is mounted on the lifting section to make use of this valuable space.

 

Edited January 13 by Harlequin

[Pete the Elaner]

20 hours ago, Danfilm007 said:

On the point of fiddle yards, I took some inspiration from an online fiddle yard model, this seems to be a bit more flexible? 6 roads in the middle and two continuous outer loops for running. Seems a bit tight but maybe also quite efficient? All the radius are 20/21" to make it a bit less tight!

 

That is how I have laid my fiddle yard. It shortens the longest sidings a little but it makes every train available for up & down. Trains usually come back from where they have gone to.

I feel that many go with the traditional dedicated up & down lines in the fiddle yard because they have not really given it a great deal of thought.

 

For the layout in general, I cannot see any definite view on whether it is to be above or below ground level. Oxford Road is above & I get the impression the OP has chosen to go the same way, but many city stations are in cuttings. This provides an excellent opportunity to squash the station in between retaining walls, tunnels & bridges without actually making it look squashed. Whether you enjoy the challenge of making suitable buildings necessary to work with this is a matter of personal preference.

[Danfilm007]

Thank you as always to everyone for their views! Today's idea for the fiddle yard is to add some reversing points on the lowest and top points - i.e you COULD get into the fiddle yard from the running lines but maybe is making it more complex? Harlequin, I'm modelling your fiddle yard type now, it looks a great idea too :)

[Danfilm007]

On 13/01/2024 at 12:43, Harlequin said:

Here's my idea for an improved fiddle yard:

 

• The storage loops (blue 1-8) are all set up as trailing crossovers so a train in any loop can leave in either direction on the correct line.
• The shortest loops (2 & 3) are 1667mm long between turnouts, enough for a 5 car train and clearance at both ends.
• The longest loop (8) is 2167mm long but the usable length would be restricted in practice by the nearby R3 curve.
• The two through routes are very smooth apart from a short section of R3 radius (red) in each.
• The through routes encounter all the loop turnouts in the trailing direction. Only the loop entry crossovers are facing.
• Turnouts are all Streamline Medium (brown) and Curved (green).
• There's room in the top left corner for further storage spurs if needed.
• FY baseboard width is 650mm so there are no reach problems.
• One entry crossover is mounted on the lifting section to make use of this valuable space.

 

 

Using your efforts, I've come up with the attached! What points did you use? I wasn't able to accurately capture it but I think it wasn't a half-bad job for a first go. It allows any train to run through, or reverse back from any direction (apart from the last two loops, but you can always run those through the other direction!.. 

 

Edited January 15 by Danfilm007
Updated plan

[RobinofLoxley]

I have reservations about this owing to the fact that all the fiddle yard roads have a degree of curve that will be challenging to lay and build on several fronts. If you are placing stock on a slightly curved track, with little free space between tracks, thats more fiddly to do than with straight tracks. Also the locations of the transition from scenic to fiddle yard are now a long way down the plan sides, do you really want so much of the plan area to be walled off?

 

The fiddle yard plan is ingenious but for me it belongs in the realms of a nice design on paper only.

[simon b]

Do you need to have every fiddle road capable of reversing trains? I would think that in normal operation only a few multiple units would actually need to change direction, those being traffic out of the bay platform.  I would be inclined to keep things simple with just up and down loops, and a center reversing loop between them. 

[stivesnick]

Hi 

 

I have been folowing the discussion, especially with respect to the fiddle yard with interest. I guess the questions that need to be answered are:

 

1. How many freight trains do you want to run and how long will they be? Whilst some freight and PW trains can be quite short, for example nuclear flask trains, others are much longer say 15-20 bogie wagons. Is having 8-10 wagon trains reasonable or go for longer?

 

2. As noted in the post above, how many passenger trains will want to reverse in the fiddle yard? That might depend on how much stock you have. If there is enough to have trains running in each direction then the amount of reversing will be reduced. On the other hand, if there is only one IEP train, then that would have to reverse. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nick  

[Harlequin]

The point about my design is that it's very flexible: It allows a train to leave in either direction from any storage loop, enter any storage loop from any direction and every storage loop can hold every train. So you don't have to compromise the operations to suit the FY.

 

Unless trains are running a cyclic route they will mostly go from A to B and in the end come back from B to A. So that implies that most of them need to change direction in the FY, doesn't it? It depends on the topology of the network around this station, which I'm not familiar with.

 

(Re)railing stock on curving tracks is more difficult than on straight tracks and especially where spacing is tight but the curves in my design are required to compress the number and size of storage loops into the space available. If the number of loops are reduced the design becomes a bit more rational but at the cost of storage capacity, obviously. It's all a question of compromise. Modern multiple unit trains probably require much less manual handling than loco-hauled trains so maybe (re)railing on curved track isn't such an issue here?

 

Since we know the lines through the proposed station are signalled bi-directionally, part of the FY pointwork could be kept on scene without looking silly, and thus extend the scenic area a bit. In the case of my design that would mean one or both of the facing loop entry crossovers.

 

Edited January 15 by Harlequin

[Danfilm007]

1 hour ago, stivesnick said:

Hi 

 

I have been folowing the discussion, especially with respect to the fiddle yard with interest. I guess the questions that need to be answered are:

 

1. How many freight trains do you want to run and how long will they be? Whilst some freight and PW trains can be quite short, for example nuclear flask trains, others are much longer say 15-20 bogie wagons. Is having 8-10 wagon trains reasonable or go for longer?

 

2. As noted in the post above, how many passenger trains will want to reverse in the fiddle yard? That might depend on how much stock you have. If there is enough to have trains running in each direction then the amount of reversing will be reduced. On the other hand, if there is only one IEP train, then that would have to reverse. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nick  

 

Thanks Nick! I appreciate everyone's feedback and it is an interesting debate on the fiddle yard. I have inverted it, so trains can more easily go into and out of the sections in the fiddle yard. I have added one dead-end siding that more easily allows for Bay platform shuttling, plus an elongated headshunt and crossover. To me it flows better, allows simpler use for in and out units, plus a proper way of reversing trains without being too silly. Simpler? Also means most are 5ft long - easily long enough for 2x 2 car DMUs, 1x 3 and 1x2, plus freight, a 67+Mk4 set etc.

 

Freight - not massively long (as you can tell, space is at a bit of premium!), a smaller container train and maybe some PW too, my main interest is passenger services but a lot of interesting trains in my part of the world!

 

Most items would reverse in the fiddle yard. As a lot of trains in the real operations go towards Piccadilly and Manchester Airport and reverse, so you get a reasonable level of churn both east and west. The other benefit to this this way means if I just want to chill out with some trains trundling round, I can just do that. We all like to play trains now and then!..

 

 

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, Danfilm007 said:

 

Thanks Nick! I appreciate everyone's feedback and it is an interesting debate on the fiddle yard. I have inverted it, so trains can more easily go into and out of the sections in the fiddle yard. I have added one dead-end siding that more easily allows for Bay platform shuttling, plus an elongated headshunt and crossover. To me it flows better, allows simpler use for in and out units, plus a proper way of reversing trains without being too silly. Simpler? Also means most are 5ft long - easily long enough for 2x 2 car DMUs, 1x 3 and 1x2, plus freight, a 67+Mk4 set etc.

 

Freight - not massively long (as you can tell, space is at a bit of premium!), a smaller container train and maybe some PW too, my main interest is passenger services but a lot of interesting trains in my part of the world!

 

Most items would reverse in the fiddle yard. As a lot of trains in the real operations go towards Piccadilly and Manchester Airport and reverse, so you get a reasonable level of churn both east and west. The other benefit to this this way means if I just want to chill out with some trains trundling round, I can just do that. We all like to play trains now and then!..

 

 

By flipping the FY over trains running on the through lines now have to negotiate ladders of multiple facing points, which increases the risk of derailments.

 

Edited January 15 by Harlequin

[Danfilm007]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

By flipping the FY over trains running on the through lines now have to negotiate ladders of multiple facing points, which increases the risk of derailments.

 

 

That's a fair point, and something easily fixed by putting an avoiding line underneath the points!

[Danfilm007]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

By flipping the FY over trains running on the through lines now have to negotiate ladders of multiple facing points, which increases the risk of derailments.

 

Does this look better in your eyes, then? Now you can access all of the fiddle yard sidings from the facing direction, plus a special bi-directional siding for freight stock. Min of R19 curves (but 20, 21 mostly!) for a bit looser and smoother travelling

 

Edited January 15 by Danfilm007
Updated plan (again!)

[simon b]

Is 8 loops going to be enough? Have a think about how many you need and design it around that number.