Brickwork’s questions

[scalerailmodelling]

Hi all hope you’re all doing well

 

I am trying my hand at 0-16.5 and have a Ransomes and Rapier 80 kit which I intend to pair with a few V skips and make a small brick works in the mid to late 90s in a very similar vein to this prototype 

 

http://www.ingr.co.uk/rly_cherry.html

 

however whilst doing some research I came across multiple references to brickworks being very seasonal. It seems this was certainly the case in the mid Victorian period but does anyone know if brickworks became all year round?

 

ideally I would like to be able to run the layout anywhere between the 50s to the 90s. 
 

as the loco is from 1937 and the skips are not timebound I should be able to but I am a bit put off if it would only part of the year etc

 

 

any info would be greatly appreciated 

 

or if someone can suggest another interesting prototype to use the aforementioned stock and loco I’d be happy to consider it - I am currently staring down the barrel of a brickworks in 0-16.5 and another in 009 🤣

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[fulton]

From my time in construction, orders for bricks slowed down during the winter months, you can have all sorts of problems trying to lay bricks in wet or cold conditions, so I guess production would also slow down. I have an interest in brick and cement industries along the River Medway, even building houses on the former brickfields at Lower Halstow, where we found remains of the narrow gauge railway and tipper wagons, I still have a point lever I unearthed there. Here is an example of a simple interchange between the narrow gauge coming in from top and standard gauge from bottom, at the Smeed Dean brick and cement works, Merston Kent.

[Nearholmer]

From what I recall of brickworks with NG lines they were only slightly seasonal, in that clay extraction and brick making carried on all the time ground conditions permitted - if it got too boggy or too solid-frozen it might slow-up or stop, but otherwise not, and bricks were stock-piled on site at times when demand was slow. If you are modelling a winter scene the brickworks should be surrounded by a “fortification” of stacked bricks.
 

Although brick-clay is notoriously sticky and horrible stuff in gardens, on bridleways and footpaths, and probably a bngger to work in wet weather if your kit consists of pucks, spades and wheelbarrows, as in a small Victorian pit, in a brick pit using excavators and a railway things are slightly different, because it isn’t getting trodden-down and puddled, and new material is being exposed all the time, so it stays quite stiff and dry on the working face, which means that stoppages for wet ground would be rare.

 

If you are modelling Cherry Orchard, one thing to note about that, and the other one nearby, is that the working faces were quite shallow, maybe only a couple of metres high at maximum, in a long, straight line, they were “brick fields” rather than “brick pits”. Other pits that I recall were different, in hillier countryside, with very high working faces, so literally a pit, either into a hillside or as a big hole in the ground. The type of pit/face determined the type of excavator used, which I can go into detail about if needed. The pits were arranged to drain either to a natural stream if they were cut into a hillside, or to a pumped sump. Many of the ‘hole in the ground’ sort are now ‘amenity lakes’ of course. Some of my photos of Nutbourne here http://www.ingr.co.uk/rly_hamble.html which show a pit cut into a hillside, with a lovely big, electrically powered face-shovel.

 

Enough on brickworks for now.

 

The other industry to consider if you have an R&R is foreshore shingle extraction, because East Sussex Transport & Trading had a really good railway with several R&R at Cuckmere Haven. It was quite a long run from the foreshore to the grading and loading plant, and the track-bed route is now a hugely popular, very scenic, foot and cycle path along by the river to the sea.

 

The thin white path that I’ve highlighted here is the former NG track-bed:

 

Edited January 12 by Nearholmer

[scalerailmodelling]

Thanks both very useful to know, I am planning on it being modern enough to have a steam/electric/diesel powered shovel so should be good for all year round production?

 

@Nearholmer yes please any other information would be greatly appreciated regarding the common practices in brickworks and the use of steam shovels etc.

 

My layout will be ‘inspired by’ rather than a specific prototype, possibly based in North Yorkshire!

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[sir douglas]

There was a 2ft quarry line that ran North from Newbridge on the NYMR, you could imagine it as clay instead of sand

https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/11/sandstone_from_saintoft.htm

[scalerailmodelling]

42 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

There was a 2ft quarry line that ran North from Newbridge on the NYMR, you could imagine it as clay instead of sand

https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/11/sandstone_from_saintoft.htm

Thats a brilliant prototype I had never known existed!

 

 I’m off to investigate 

 

Thanks very much 👍

 

Tim

[Nearholmer]

Being a southerner, the furthest north clay pit line I visited was Far Ings Tilery, on the northern fringe of Lincolnshire.

Someone else’s photos this time http://www.ingr.co.uk/rly_faring.html

 

I don’t have the IRS county handbooks for the northern half of the country either, but looking at Yorkshire in the 1970 Existing Locos book, I find:

 

- Escrick Tile Works

- Broomfleet Brickworks, near Brough

- Alne Brickworks

- Strensall Brick & Tile

All with 2ft gauge lines still working at that date, but no R&R locos, I’m afraid.

 

Excavators:

 

- drag-lines for removing overburden, typically good topsoil that was either sold or was stockpiled for to be restored to the ground when clay extraction finished (steam, diesel, or electric);

 

- face shovels for working high faces such as into rising ground (steam, diesel, or electric);

 

- back-hoes for working low faces and for general muck shifting (steam, diesel);

 

- rail-mounted bucket-chain excavators, which work downwards from the tops of high faces. These are super-efficient and tend to be associated with very big brickworks and huge pits (diesel, electric).

 

This is a rough guide, and I’m sure someone could cite other contraptions and power sources.

 

The thing about brick and tile works, and pottery clay too, is that they ranged in size from ‘tiny’ to ‘huge’. The tiny ones that survived a long time tended to be very specialised, having clay that was highly suited to something very particular, pottery, moulded architectural details, chimney pots, some very special type of bricks or tiles etc, and the tiniest ones had really primitive kit. By the 1930s, and certainly post-WW2, the great bulk of bricks came out of a few huge works, which had immense clay pits/fields. The Marston Vale in Bedfordshire and North Bucks, and the Fletton area south of Peterborough were the mega-centres in the southern half of England. They produced a hard, brittle, pink-coloured brick with a deep frog. Some of the late-surviving works in the south, Crowborough, Nutbourne, Maidenhead (confusingly actually at Burgess Hill, and I think still going) etc, made softer, darker-coloured bricks and tiles that had a market in building restoration/extension, and new-builds where the plans called for bricks in keeping with the locality. 

 

If you want to represent a small place, with one loco and half a dozen skips, probably somewhere working into rising ground using an old face-shovel, using a clapped-out old JCB, or even still hand-digging, might be easiest. This sort of thing would be a three or four man operation, with intermittent firing.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by Nearholmer

[Philou]

The mention of Cherry Orchard brickworks by @Nearholmer and @scalerailmodelling reminds me that Essex CC at great expense built an overbridge when they constructed a new road at Cherry Orchard so as not to hinder the railway (nor have a NG line crossing their new road) and insofar as I am aware, the bridge was never used by the rail line. When I left Essex CC in 2011, the brickworks seemed to have been abandoned. I was unaware that there may have been some NG stock lurking on the site (I would have had a look otherwise ;) ).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[fulton]

Have a look on Britain From Above for ideas, after you register you can zoom in on the images, I've just had a browse under clay pits and brickworks, most images probably too early for you, but gives an idea.

[Dunalastair]

The larger clay pits may have used locos in the pits, but the skips were generally hauled up an incline to the brickworks on a rope / cable. The bucket chain excavator had the NG track at ground level, and used locos to haul to the brick pit. Such arrangements are more associated with central Europe, especially Germany, where many of the machines were made.

 

https://modellfeldbahn.ch/bucketchainexcavator.html

 

There were, however, examples in the UK, often using imported kit. I have a model of such a machine from when Shapeways was less expensive. The design is probably still available but would now probably cost an arm and a leg in 1:76.  Otherwise, an early JCB might indeed be the way to go to keep the model compact. 

 

The photo below shows my static diorama depicting practice in the deeper Fletton brick pits. In this case the bucket excavator was based on an early machine built in Lincoln, which worked upwards, with the NG on the floor of the pit.

 

 

The Fletton industry still just about survives near us at Whittlesey, but the single plant still contributing smoke to the horizon is perpetually on the point of permanent closure as the house builders slow down construction.

Edited January 12 by Dunalastair

[Nearholmer]

15 minutes ago, Dunalastair said:

The larger clay pits may have used locos in the pits, but the skips were generally hauled up an incline to the brickworks on a rope / cable.

True where the pit was a “hole in the ground” style pit, but not so if the excavation was into rising ground, or on a flat field.

 

There was also at least one, Napton-on-the-Hill, where the “pit” was at the top of a hill, and the brickworks way down below, so there was an incline down from the pit to the works.

 

Sites where the pit/field was remote from the works I think make for more interesting reality and models, because  there is a bit of “route” between the two. That was what made Cherry Orchard Lane so nice, the fact that the track crossed the road, then rambled along behind a hedgerow for some distance to get to where clay was dug.

 

 

Edited January 12 by Nearholmer

[009 micro modeller]

Littlethorpe might be of interest as a line that was still operating until very recently and maybe still is, albeit hand-worked and 18” gauge.

[009 micro modeller]

30 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

There was also at least one, Napton-on-the-Hill, where the “pit” was at the top of a hill, and the brickworks way down below, so there was an incline down from the pit to the works.

Napton had a transporter incline, with the clay tubs running on incline platform wagons (a bit like a mini Vivian incline). The 16” gauge could be represented quite nicely in 09.

[Philou]

 

Being curious, I just went to have a look at Google Earth and Cherry Orchard. It has very much changed since I went there as I walked under the bridge in c.2000. All the landscaping has grown up.

 

 

^ You can still see the NG alignment (the shadowed area) parallel to the road and where it went under the road on a skew to come out parallel to the road on the other side towards the roundabout - the light green track. As you can see, at the top right of the elongated 'S' of the NG alignment, there's nothing left of the brickworks. IIRC, it was mainly the land to the west of the road (the left-hand side) that was worked and in the summer only - presumably it being too wet in the winter. No pits were dug, but they worked the area alternatively taking the clay off in thinnish layers and coming back perhaps a year or two later.

 

 

^ However, the Google camera has been down the original Cherry Orchard Lane and lo! a piece of the original NG crossing is still in place (between the two arrowheads - didn't know how to get rid of them!) where the loco and trucks are crossing the lane shown in @scalerailmodelling 's link in the top post.

 

Things you find - eh?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[scalerailmodelling]

Thanks all some really good informative responses. I think I will proceed with a small brickworks. 
I am planning a small layout in 0-16.5 as my first foray so it will likely depict the loco bringing the clay/brick earth to the sheds (though I need to figure out what that will look like) and the brick field and excavator will be off scene.

 

I had considered a Fluorspar mine but I have no idea how to model it.

[scalerailmodelling]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

True where the pit was a “hole in the ground” style pit, but not so if the excavation was into rising ground, or on a flat field.

 

There was also at least one, Napton-on-the-Hill, where the “pit” was at the top of a hill, and the brickworks way down below, so there was an incline down from the pit to the works.

 

Sites where the pit/field was remote from the works I think make for more interesting reality and models, because  there is a bit of “route” between the two. That was what made Cherry Orchard Lane so nice, the fact that the track crossed the road, then rambled along behind a hedgerow for some distance to get to where clay was dug.

 

 

This is what drew me to that site, a nice short, but interesting journey from field to workshop.

 

I need to learn more about what happened at the site too. The brick earth is transported from the field to the tipping shed and then what?

 

I have seen some people model trains if bricks leaving but at Cherry Orchard Lane it seemed as though the brick earth arrived by train but bricks would have left by road?

 

Thanks again

 

Tim

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, scalerailmodelling said:

I have seen some people model trains if bricks leaving but at Cherry Orchard Lane it seemed as though the brick earth arrived by train but bricks would have left by road?

Not sure if it’s what you mean but there were some works with ‘dryer cars’, special wagons for bricks to be put through the kilns on (or just normal flat wagons in some cases). Often the kiln rail system was separate from the quarry one, it might be unconnected or even a different gauge. In other cases, if there was a main line connection the bricks could be loaded into standard gauge wagons to be transported out of the works to customers.

[Nearholmer]

It might be worth getting a copy of this little book https://www.abebooks.co.uk/Bricks-Brickmaking-Shire-Album-No-75/1361867926/bd

 

It covers the basics, and you should be able to find it at a tenth of the stupid price quoted here.

 

Theres also a trad brickworks preserved, with 2ft gauge railway https://thebrickworksmuseum.org

 

Very many small brickworks never had mainline rail connections BTW, the bricks always went out by road, or by canal. The distances involved were quite short, because there were so many small works in good clay country, to the degree that sometimes for big building jobs the bricks were actually made on site in a ‘pop-up brickyard’, either entirely manually or using portable pug mill powered by a portable engine, and fired in clamps. We’re back to the huge variety of sizes of pits and works.

 

I don’t know if it’s available on some ‘player’, but years ago there was a good TV series called The Victorian Farm, filmed at Acton Scott Farming Museum, and IIRC in one episode they made bricks and fired them on-site. Very interesting, because it showed how in a clamp different bricks get burned to different degrees, resulting in different colours, which can the be sorted and used for diaper-work decoration. There’s a lot of that in old buildings where I live, including a lowly forge now used as a bus shelter and to store the parish council mower - the detailing on that little building is fascinating given that it served a very workaday purpose.

 

 

Edited January 13 by Nearholmer

[Dunalastair]

17 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Napton had a transporter incline, with the clay tubs running on incline platform wagons (a bit like a mini Vivian incline). The 16” gauge could be represented quite nicely in 09.

 

Thankyou for that - though there are several interesting images on the Warks site, I had not previously seen that image nor realised that they used a transporter. I visited the site a few years ago for a walk - there were many varieties of butterfly in the old pits, and the windmill made a striking contrast.

 

The NLS site has 1:2500 mapping of the site, but I cannot immediately identify the transporter https://maps.nls.uk/view/115636331

 

[scalerailmodelling]

Thanks again everyone these responses are really useful. 
I think I will proceed as planned with the brickworks, but be mindful of what to include. The beauty of it is, as @Nearholmer has said, there was a huge range of works, and so I can create a backstory to suit my layout. 
I am trying to keep my costs low at the moment too and seeing Cherry Orchard Lane as a real example, its not un-prototypical to have the loco pulling 3 or 4 wagons only.

 

Thanks again

 

Tim

[phil_sutters]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It might be worth getting a copy of this little book https://www.abebooks.co.uk/Bricks-Brickmaking-Shire-Album-No-75/1361867926/bd

 

It covers the basics, and you should be able to find it at a tenth of the stupid price quoted here.

 

 

 

 

Abe is an umbella organisation for dozens of small booksellers and you will find a huge variation in their prices and postage rates. This* is one of the lower cost options. I may not have ordered from this supplier, but the Abe Books sellers I have used have been very efficient and generally accurate in their description. I have also found similarly priced copies at WoB (World of Books) when you factor in that their postage is free.

 * https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31714908282&searchurl=an%3Dhammond%2Bmartin%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Dbricks%2Band%2Bbrickmaking&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title1

Edited January 13 by phil_sutters

[Hans.Albern]

One point I would like to add because I think it could have an impact on modelling: The firing of bricks used to be a seasonal job because the blanks had to be dried.

If wooden drying sheds are depicted or drying chambers are missing, production is seasonal in the summer months.

 

My knowledge comes from the traditional Rusch brickworks in Kehdinger Land on the Lower Elbe in Germany. This brickworks still fires bricks in the traditional round kiln with coal. Their website describes the history

of the company and the production process in English. In the late 90s when I visited, there were extensive wooden drying sheds connected by a mile-long conveyor belt.

 

Don't let the fire go out!

Hans

 

 

 

Edited January 14 by Hans.Albern

[Nearholmer]

Drying bricks in hacks was very much an old-time, or very small works thing in England, because decent-sized, not necessarily huge, works had various sorts of drying ovens from quite an early period.

 

The works I knew best, Crowborough, actually had no railway to the clay pits when I knew it, but had an extensive railway through the drying ovens and around the continuous firing kilns. The ovens there were effectively long tunnels with track in them, into which ‘kiln cars’ loaded with ‘green’ bricks were fed. The process was exactly like baking biscuits! The ‘kiln cars’ came out the other end, then we’re shifted to firing kilns and the bricks stacked into whichever opening was in use on the day.

 

A works using hack drying would probably have non-continuous “beehive” kilns, like these preserved ones (this gives a very good description of the process of a hack-drying brickworks, but notice here that the clay was dug in winter, not summer, when it goes rock-hard) https://www.theparkstrust.com/our-work/heritage-in-our-parks/great-linford-brick-kilns/

 

Some small works dug in summer, but deliberately flooded the pits in winter to give the clay a good soaking - it all depended on local geology, the nature of the pit, local micro-climate etc.

 

 

Edited January 14 by Nearholmer

[fulton]

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 

Some small works dug in summer, but deliberately flooded the pits in winter to give the clay a good soaking - it all depended on local geology, the nature of the pit, local micro-climate etc.

 

 

A good soaking each tide, clay being loaded at low tide from the River Medway mud flats, into a sailing barge, 100 tones each load.