NZRedBaron Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 I've been trying to look around for a while to find details about this fabled document, but to no avail; does anyone know where it could be? Or at least, know what engines were on it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 18 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, NZRedBaron said: I've been trying to look around for a while to find details about this fabled document, but to no avail; does anyone know where it could be? Or at least, know what engines were on it? The document, if it exists will be in the national archives. (I say if it exists' because the list wasn't some sort of grand stand alone thing produced by a noteworthy person - it was simply a business document no different to the thousands of other lists that the BR board created to help it run its affairs) As to which engines were on it - it was basically all of the ones which ended up under the ownership of the Science Museum Group (i.e. NRM) and are usually refereed to as 'The National Collection' plus a few others which the BR later decided were not 'worthy' of preservation so got scrapped instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rolling_stock_items_in_the_UK_National_Collection Edited January 18 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 A lot of what has survived are down to the management of railways. The following link about the origins sums it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Railway_Museum#Origins Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 It does exist. It was a proper printed pamphlet. I saw a copy a few years ago in the reference library in Liverpool and it has been shown in magazines a few times. Railway Magazine has certainly had an article about it. Maybe have a look in a major city centre library for a copy? Although might be difficult if you are in NZ! ISTR one of the RCTS year books also printed the list. Don't take wiki as evidence of anything. Flying Scotsman wasn't on it for a start although 60113 was, even though it had been rebuilt! Locos certainly changed and there was a lot more than actually did survive. Often locomotives selected were in poor condition or altered too much. Off the top of my head.... King Arthur rather than Sir Lamiel 30119 instead of 30120 30900 rather than 30925 71000 Duke Of Gloucester 70000 Britannia A 73XXX presumably the first one It just said GWR Pannier Tank with no identity Ben Alder Claud Hamilton SR Z Class NER J21 - different number to the one now preserved LMS Duchess LMS 10000 There was also mention of offering locomotives for display in regional museums which in one of the articles wasn't taken up by many. I believe that is why City Of Birmingham was chosen as Birmingham wanted one. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 The National Archives catalogue is online. See link below. If you put into the search function "preservation" you get a list come up. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=preservation&_p=1950&_hb=tna&_d=AN AN 172/262 Preservation of historical locomotives 1946 Jan 01 - 1964 Apr 30 seems to be the file most likely to provide the must fabled list though AN 104/4 Transport Act 1962: papers on schemes for relics and records could also prove useful. Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18 Was this not the list of preserved locomotives that could be found in the Ian Allan spotting books, the 'National Collection' as it existed in the 60s. The locos were those on display at the Science Museum and the old York Railway Museum, plus those stored at Brighton, later Stratford. Britannia and Evening Star were included but still in service. I might be thinking of something else entirely. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 50 minutes ago, The Johnster said: Was this not the list of preserved locomotives that could be found in the Ian Allan spotting books, the 'National Collection' as it existed in the 60s. The locos were those on display at the Science Museum and the old York Railway Museum, plus those stored at Brighton, later Stratford. Britannia and Evening Star were included but still in service. I might be thinking of something else entirely. Amazing coincidence. This morning I had a good tidy up of my office ( too cold in the garage so I thought I would bring some figures in to paint) and amongst the strata of railway related debris was an Ian Allen Spotters Notebook. And yes it has a list of locomotives which were to be part of a National Collection. Funny thing is: I was never a spotter and haven’t a clue where it came from. Perhaps one of the girls found it in a charity shop...... Edited January 18 by doilum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18 IIRC the list was at the back of the 'Steam Locomotives' book; it was definitely at the back oc the 'Combined Volume'. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Johnster said: IIRC the list was at the back of the 'Steam Locomotives' book; it was definitely at the back oc the 'Combined Volume'. Yes, in sections: - Locomotives preserved by the railway companies before 1948 - Locomotives preserved by the British Transport Commission - Locomotives donated since 1953 - Locomotives scheduled for preservation 1960 (From the Summer 1962 Combine) There are inaccuracies. For example, in “Locomotives preserved by the British Transport Commission” (note the past tense) ‘Ben Alder’ is listed. (That is the Highland Railway ‘Small Ben’ class No. 2, not the esteemed member of this parish.) Edited January 18 by pH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 11 minutes ago, pH said: Yes, in sections: - Locomotives preserved by the railway companies before 1948 - Locomotives preserved by the British Transport Commission - Locomotives donated since 1953 - Locomotives scheduled for preservation 1960 (From the Summer 1962 Combine) There are inaccuracies. For example, in “Locomotives preserved by the British Transport Commission” (note the past tense) ‘Ben Alder’ is listed. (That is the Highland Railway ‘Small Ben’ class No. 2, not the esteemed member of this parish.) Ben Alder was preserved at the time though. Scrapped in 1966 due to it having the wrong boiler thirteen years after being preserved in 1953. I remember another one that was scrapped after being officially preserved was one of the J70s (or possibly a Y6). Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18 The 1962 list of engines to be preserved (i.e. not including those already preserved) was published contemporaneously in vaeu ious magazines including The Railway Magazine abnd Trains Illustrated/Modern Railways (I can't remember offhand when the title changed) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Ben Alder was preserved at the time though. We’re getting into semantics here, but I think a better description would be “set aside for possible future preservation”. I never saw HR no. 2. I did see 54398 in a couple of Glasgow area sheds, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimC Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Isn't it the list on this page? https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/16/the-great-western-society 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 11 minutes ago, JimC said: Isn't it the list on this page? https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/16/the-great-western-society Pretty much. The one I saw was a printed pamphlet of about eight to ten pages and did have a few minor differences. No idea if I could find it again as the library was totally gutted a few years ago. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Back in my office. The correct title of this notebook is "Loco Logbook". "List of steam locomotives preserved and scheduled by the British Railways Board." The list has 76 locomotives some of which are still in service . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 I can't help wondering why this historical list is now of interest. It would have made sense at the time it was produced, but since then what is "officially" preserved and what actually exists in preservation generally have both changed somewhat, and can be expected to continue to change over time. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Burnham Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 17 hours ago, JimC said: Isn't it the list on this page? https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/16/the-great-western-society The section of "locomotives donated since 1953" is a bit curious. "Gladstone" had been in the York Museum since 1927. Possibly it was only on long term loan from the Stephenson Locomotive Society? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 A bit of an update. I was at the National Archives yesterday looking at the minutes of the Railway Executive in the early 1950s, and even then they were thinking about locomotive preservation. Riddles met with the SLS and the Newcommen Society to put together a wish list if you like of locomotive types that should be preserved. It was quite short initially.They had concerns about where the locos would be kept and so thought about having models made of key examples of steam locomotives which could be used to illustrate the story. The list was in two parts, locos already withdrawn and put to one side which included 41000 the Midland compound, and Ben Alder. Of possible locos to preserve an ex LNER K3 was listed. Simon 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted January 22 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 22 On 19/01/2024 at 21:51, Michael Hodgson said: I can't help wondering why this historical list is now of interest. It would have made sense at the time it was produced, but since then what is "officially" preserved and what actually exists in preservation generally have both changed somewhat, and can be expected to continue to change over time. That's exactly why I stopped buying 'Rail' magazine. The Class 37/0 was being modified to 37/5 & 37/7 and the list of likely candidates in order, was in the mag each issue. However the list kept changing and it just got tedious. Better to have waited to see what actually came out of the workshops! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 On 19/01/2024 at 10:51, Michael Hodgson said: I can't help wondering why this historical list is now of interest. It would have made sense at the time it was produced, but since then what is "officially" preserved and what actually exists in preservation generally have both changed somewhat, and can be expected to continue to change over time. Because it changed? It's vastly interesting to many of us. Just think of the locos on the list at various times that no longer exist and then wonder why we are interested. Great Northern Claud Hamilton Ben Alder King Arthur GER J70 or Y6 LNER K3 Going back a bit further we had such engines as Midlothian which was meant to go in the LNER Museum but was scrapped twice! Locomotives of this class were withdrawn from service in the 1930s. Two in 1933, one in 1934, three in 1935, then eight in 1936, and eight in 1937. The final locomotive withdrawn was Midlothian in December 1937. In a remarkable piece of railway history, an order was issued that Midlothian should be preserved for the nation, as an example of such an important class of locomotive, but the order was not received until after the engine had been scrapped at Cowlairs. So that the national collection was not denied a Class H engine, Midlothian (whose component parts were mostly still in existence, and frame still fully intact) was painstakingly rebuilt, and returned to service for transfer to the LNER Railway Museum at York (which later formed part of the basis of the National Railway Museum). Several parts of the locomotive had been disposed of, including one main connecting rod, and these were built new for the restored engine. Unfortunately, just a few months later the Second World War commenced, and there was a massive demand for metal to produce aircraft for the war effort. The newly rebuilt Midlothian was withdrawn from the museum stock, and scrapped for a second time, to provide aircraft-building materials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBR_H_class Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 A bit OT, but that beats the thrice-withdrawn 8Fs (48773-5). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt37268 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 59 minutes ago, pH said: A bit OT, but that beats the thrice-withdrawn 8Fs (48773-5). 48773/8233/WD500 is still with us to tell it’s rather interesting story today though 😀 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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