Tallpaul69 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I am looking for some expertise that can tell me the periods (e.g.:- pre WW2, or 1950s or 1960s) in which the following rail tankers were used, in the livery the models carry, and their routes used:- 1) Hornby (ex Airfix) 20T in silver -United Oil Importers R6012 2) as above in black - Yorkshire Tar Distillers R6011 3) Bachmann 14T (type 5) in blue-green- Lee and Green (water) 37-670X 4) as above but type 4 in buff - BP Ethyl 33-676 5) as above but type 3 in brown- BOCM 33-509 I appreciate they would not have been seen together! Many thanks Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 (edited) BOCM postwar. OCM prewar Edited January 23 by doilum 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markw Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 BP Ethyl is a 1936 livery trial and probably never operated in this livery, Bachmann's livery is probably wrong as it should have red Shell lettering on the other side. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Yorkshire Tar Distillers was in business 1920s - 1970s when it became part of Croda. There are some photos of tanks out of use at Croda on Paul Bartlett's site, mostly crudded up but with odd bits of yellow lettering visible so I suspect the livery is correct if not necessarily the exact type of tank. There are some employee reminiscences here - http://stairfootstation.co.uk/tar/ - coal tar was the starting point so my guess (and it is only that) is that the rail tanks were used to bring coal tar in in bulk as a raw material with the finushed products (pitch, naptha, creosote etc) going out by road. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I'd be interested in any models of the WW2 Pool tankers. Class A wagons were for aviation fuel, 17ft-6inch long on a 10ft wheelbase, with a 7ft-2inch diameter tank that held 4275 gallons. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markw Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 18 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said: I'd be interested in any models of the WW2 Pool tankers. Class A wagons were for aviation fuel, 17ft-6inch long on a 10ft wheelbase, with a 7ft-2inch diameter tank that held 4275 gallons. This livery is almost certainly fictional, the petroleum board was set up to increase the usage of tank wagons, dedicating some to pool petrol only would do the opposite. This previous thread didn't find any evidence. All prewar class A tank wagons would be in stone livery so the tinplate wagon manufacturers seem to have based many of thier liveries on the road tanker liveries for more colour and variation. I think this pool livery is also based a road tanker. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 18 hours ago, Wheatley said: Yorkshire Tar Distillers was in business 1920s - 1970s when it became part of Croda. There are some photos of tanks out of use at Croda on Paul Bartlett's site, mostly crudded up but with odd bits of yellow lettering visible so I suspect the livery is correct if not necessarily the exact type of tank. There are some employee reminiscences here - http://stairfootstation.co.uk/tar/ - coal tar was the starting point so my guess (and it is only that) is that the rail tanks were used to bring coal tar in in bulk as a raw material with the finushed products (pitch, naptha, creosote etc) going out by road. Did YTD have any 12ft wheelbase tank wagons? https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/yorkshiretardistillers What is correct on that wb is the Hornby MTD wagon which they copied well in its 1968 livery https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mtd/e32835152 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mtd/e228592a4 . These are very old models so not wonderful! Paul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 21 minutes ago, markw said: This livery is almost certainly fictional, the petroleum board was set up to increase the usage of tank wagons, dedicating some to pool petrol only would do the opposite. This previous thread didn't find any evidence. All prewar class A tank wagons would be in stone livery so the tinplate wagon manufacturers seem to have based many of thier liveries on the road tanker liveries for more colour and variation. I think this pool livery is also based a road tanker. There are too many mistaken liveries on tank wagons on Heritage railways. Even when done by professional firms https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/smbpanchor/e1e33375b Paul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 (edited) On 23/01/2024 at 15:26, Tallpaul69 said: I am looking for some expertise that can tell me the periods (e.g.:- pre WW2, or 1950s or 1960s) in which the following rail tankers were used, in the livery the models carry, and their routes used:- 3) Bachmann 14T (type 5) in blue-green- Lee and Green (water) 37-670X The Lee & Green tanker was a commission by British Railway Modelling magazine in the early 2000's- The prototype is listed in the Keith Turton PO wagon books (Vol 13, p.78- it's also the front cover picture). According to the photo caption, the wagon dates from c.1911, and the photo shows a board along the side listing "Factories at Sleaford, Spalding, Bourne, Boston & Skegness" which is missing from the model. Keith Turton suggests they would have been seen in a fairly localised area working between Bourne and these factories, some of which had been closed by about 1934 There's a piece about Lee & Green here which includes the wagon photo. Edited January 25 by Invicta 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 14 hours ago, Invicta said: There's a piece about Lee & Green here which includes the wagon photo. Which shows a tank wagon with a wooden underframe. On 24/01/2024 at 17:53, markw said: This livery is almost certainly fictional, the petroleum board was set up to increase the usage of tank wagons, dedicating some to pool petrol only would do the opposite. WW2 period class A tanks carried either higher octane aviation fuel or motor vehicle "Pool" petrol. Pre-war livery was stone with a red band around the tank, and immediately pre-war tanks in silver with a red band were agreed. Both being too easy to identify from the air, the tank colour was changed to plain grey fairly early in the war, with a red solebar. The tanks carried the wagon number, with a two letter prefix showing the owner: AA - Anglo American, (Esso), AM - Air Ministry, BP, SM - Shell Mex, plus the usual "No naked light, etc." wording. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 15 hours ago, Invicta said: There's a piece about Lee & Green here which includes the wagon photo. Isn't it about time somebody did a Lee & Perrins tanker, return empty to Worcester? They've got a loco, 37185. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted January 26 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 26 25 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said: Isn't it about time somebody did a Lee & Perrins tanker, return empty to Worcester? They've got a loco, 37185. In case anyone is tempted that will be Lea and Perrins. Probably needs a glass lined tank to prevent corrosion! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said: In case anyone is tempted that will be Lea and Perrins. Probably needs a glass lined tank to prevent corrosion! There were vinegar tanks https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs.html?private_owner=14890 Paul 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted January 26 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 26 6 minutes ago, hmrspaul said: There were vinegar tanks https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs.html?private_owner=14890 Paul Thanks Paul …. And of course Worcester had vinegar in addition to sauce …. Hill Evans was the company, and hence the vinegar branch. IIRC it came out in wooden casks though … Hill Evans Vinegar Works Worcester 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 3 hours ago, Phil Bullock said: Thanks Paul …. And of course Worcester had vinegar in addition to sauce …. Hill Evans was the company, and hence the vinegar branch. IIRC it came out in wooden casks though … Hill Evans Vinegar Works Worcester I suppose those vinegar tankers ran on the back of fish trains, along with a salt wagon 🤣 The Vinegar branch would have made an interesting model. It had a slotted post level crossing signal I would love to have seen 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted January 26 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said: I suppose those vinegar tankers ran on the back of fish trains, along with a salt wagon 🤣 The Vinegar branch would have made an interesting model. It had a slotted post level crossing signal I would love to have seen I did see them …. Just about!!! In later years there was a train of acetic acid in tanks from up north to South Wales …. Smelt just like vinegar. As it ran from Saltend to name it the Salt-end-vinegar was just too tempting…. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 5 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said: As it ran from Saltend to name it the Salt-end-vinegar was just too tempting…. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallpaul69 Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 Meanwhile, returning to my original question, there has been replies on most of the tanker liveries except the Hornby "United Oil Importers". One reply seemed to say generally that the silver with red lettering of this type came in before WW2, but I wonder how long after the war it was used? R. Tourret's book has an illustration of a similar 20 ton wagon built in 1927, but as the source was Procor, the builder that took over the Chas Roberts wagon builders, it is likely that this dates from the time the wagon was built, so gives no clue as to its post war history! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 2 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said: Meanwhile, returning to my original question, there has been replies on most of the tanker liveries except the Hornby "United Oil Importers". This firm was set up in 1927, and was still in existence in 1938 with a depot in Liverpool. It seems to have been a fairly small scale operation and may not have survived WW2, at least under that name; I am not aware of any post-war reference to it. 2 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said: One reply seemed to say generally that the silver with red lettering of this type came in before WW2, but I wonder how long after the war it was used? Tourret states that aluminium with a red line around the tank was agreed [as an alternative to stone, not as a replacement for it] in March 1939, just before WW2. However, the timing is such that it is probable that only a very small number of tank wagons, if any, were so painted before the war. It would have disappeared during the war as a result of tanks being painted grey to minimise visibility, and would not have reappeared, as the post-war class A livery was silver/aluminium tanks, with red solebars but no red line on the tank. It seems that Hornby probably got the base colour wrong and it should have been stone. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 On 26/01/2024 at 22:22, Phil Bullock said: I did see them …. Just about!!! In later years there was a train of acetic acid in tanks from up north to South Wales …. Smelt just like vinegar. As it ran from Saltend to name it the Salt-end-vinegar was just too tempting…. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/aceticethanoltank https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/stschemicaltua Paul 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 On 26/01/2024 at 20:57, Michael Hodgson said: I suppose those vinegar tankers ran on the back of fish trains, along with a salt wagon 🤣 Wot - no chips ? ................................................ maybe in a Newspaper Van ??!? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted January 28 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28 13 hours ago, hmrspaul said: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/aceticethanoltank https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/stschemicaltua Paul That’s the ones! Thanks Paul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted January 28 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said: Wot - no chips ? ................................................ maybe in a Newspaper Van ??!? I vant plaice …. Und no nasty soggy chips …. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 For a balanced diet... 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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