Shunting signal positions

[Crepello]

I’m familiar from observation of the prototype that shunting signals are situated by the points leading off the main line into a siding. However, these wouldn’t be seen by a driver reversing his train into the siding until he reached the points. Would there be a duplicate shunting signal at the ‘limit of shunt’ where the loco stops before reversing?

[uax6]

No.  The guard at the rear of the train would communicate (lamp signals/flags etc) to the driver to indicate when clear, and when to set back.

 

Andy G

[The Stationmaster]

11 minutes ago, uax6 said:

No.  The guard at the rear of the train would communicate (lamp signals/flags etc) to the driver to indicate when clear, and when to set back.

 

Andy G

Or the Shunter in charge of the movement.

 

An interesting observation from Single Line working pn the Berks & Hants (Extension) back in the very late 10 960s.  A Down West of England express is brpiught to a stand at Bedwyn clear of the main lines trailing crossover prior to be set back onto the Up Main - which was in use as the single line.  A Handsignalman duly informs the, London, Driver that he is to set back over the crossover onto the Up Main - in use as the single line - when the dummy comes off.  

 

The response from the Driver - who no doubt normally sailed through Bedwyn with his train at or approaching maximum line speed - was the ultimate in both road knowledge (lack of tiny detail) and the need for someone on the ground to handsignal in such situations as he shouted back   'What  '$/&*ing dummy?'   (which his Secondman could have clearly seen from his side of the cab if he dared to let in the morning air).

 

Long train, even though the curvature helped a bit, but definitely shwing the need for a man on the ground to handsignal the move.

[Cwmtwrch]

33 minutes ago, Crepello said:

Would there be a duplicate shunting signal at the ‘limit of shunt’ where the loco stops before reversing?

A "Limit of shunt", however marked, is the furthest point a shunt is allowed to reach; it is not a point all shunts have to reach. If the shunt only has a small number of wagons, then its driver will stop once it is all clear of the points concerned, without reference to the LoS, and can then reverse when the road is set for the next move and any relevant signal is cleared.

[ikcdab]

41 minutes ago, uax6 said:

No.  The guard at the rear of the train would communicate (lamp signals/flags etc) to the driver to indicate when clear, and when to set back.

 

Andy G

And the guard will also indicate when the driver should stop.  The guard can see the buffer stop, the driver probably can't.  

Ian

[MartinRS]

45 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Or the Shunter in charge of the movement.

I once met a former shunter who'd been transferred to the S&T to work as a labourer. His claim to fame was his ability to get 12 wagons into a siding only long enough to accommodate 10 wagons. He stacked a couple of them on top of each other!

[LMS2968]

The usual way was to put some on the far side of the stop block!

[bécasse]

There were a handful of examples of "repeater" shunt dollies around the railway network but they were very, very rare. There were far more places where no shunt dolly at all was provided for a shunt from a running line to a siding or another running line and the move was authorised by hand signals from the signalman. Shunt dollies were always provided at the exit from a siding to a running line unless that exit was controlled by an immediately adjacent ground frame (not signal box).

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Shunt dollies were always provided at the exit from a siding to a running line unless that exit was controlled by an immediately adjacent ground frame (not signal box).

The LNER and LMS used multiple small semaphore arms stacked on a normal post in certain circumstances.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

The usual way was to put some on the far side of the stop block!

Sometimes they simply extended the siding by propelling the stop block with a train that was too long to fit!

The PWay could come and fill in the gaps when the last few wagons had been rerailed and moved out of the way.

 

In reply to the original question, there were places (at least on the Eastern Region) where repeater ground signals were provided where the driver couldn't see whether the dolly by the points was off or on

[Edwin_m]

I seem to recall a stencil indicator south of on the old aggregate sidings at Draycott (between Long Eaton and Spondon), but they were long disused when I moved into the area so I can't say for sure.  An overbridge blocked the line of sight between the driver and the shunter working the frame.  

 

I've also seen in a couple of places normal bulkhead-type lamps on poles with signal numbers and R suffixes.  But I can't immediately recall where.  

Edited January 27 by Edwin_m

[The Johnster]

At Radyr (and I’m surprised Mike Stationmaster hasn’t mentioned it, given that he was once in charge of the place), there was a frequent need for trains putting traffic off at the junction that had arrived from the Quarry end to pull forward past the junction on to the up (i.e. Pontypridd-bound) goods before the road was set for whatever part of that somewhat complex yard the train, or that particular cut of it was destined for.  
 

But it wasn’t as simple as the guard or a shunter just calling the loco back.  Any more than about 30 wagon-lengths (and some trains were twice that) the loco was well out of sight around a right-hand bend, and obscured by trees on the riverbank, and the spray from a weir.  This was solved with a flashing indicator searchlight signal, extinguished when not in use, which instructed the driver to set back, cuts being separated when the flashing light was fully extinguished, which resulted in the loco brake being applied.  The move would be signalled by the normal ‘dummies’ (we didn’t call them ‘dollies’ on the Western) as well if course, and by the time the driver had lost sight of the flashing indicator he could see handsignals from the shunters. 

 

From my pov in the brake van it was an ‘interesting’ move as you were sent freewheeling backwards with perhaps the best part of a thousand tons being controlled by your brake, the only information being shouted by a shunter, ‘no.4 Spike’ or whatever.  You had to take it on trust that they knew what they were doing, and they usually did, and that you’d be able to stop in roughly the right area before hitting either the stops or traffic already occupying the road.  I used to worry about meeting traffic head-on being loose-shunted from the Quarry end, especially at night when there were some seriously badly lit areas between rows of mineral wagons and hoppers.  And Radyr was pretty busy, so there’d be other moves taking place all around you just to add to the blind terror, perhaps one of the colliery trips entering the yard alongside you…
 

I may have got some of the exact details wrong, it was more than half a century ago, but I’m sure Mike will correct any of my mistakes…
 

 

Edited January 28 by The Johnster

[TheSignalEngineer]

9 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

I seem to recall a stencil indicator south of on the old aggregate sidings at Draycott (between Long Eaton and Spondon), but they were long disused when I moved into the area so I can't say for sure.  An overbridge blocked the line of sight between the driver and the shunter working the frame.  

 

I've also seen in a couple of places normal bulkhead-type lamps on poles with signal numbers and R suffixes.  But I can't immediately recall where.  

These were mainly provided in the days after single manning of locos (not DOO) started, although I remember a few with OFF stencils in the 1960s.

The first I remember doing was for propelling the tanks in off the Up Stour into the Albion Gulf Oil depot. The guard would drop off and wait for the train to draw up past the points. When the route was set and signal cleared he pressed the button to light the set back signals. He had a stop button in case anything went  wrong.

Edited January 28 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

The usual way was to put some on the far side of the stop block!

Or on older track to hope the fishplates would break and the stop block would just slide backwards.  They were easier to re-rail that the ones that finished up on top of a stopblock.

 

The Radyr light  was a standard WR Cardiff Division arrangement although they weren't all that common.  Basically it was a single lens colour light signanl head which showed a white flashing light to the Driver using the same code as the audible (whistle) code for shunting - so, depending on date - one for stop, two for go ahead, three for set back, and four for ease couplings.  The Yard staff accepted the train and set the handpoints, the Radyr Jcn Signalman  set the road and cleared the signals and with the train accepted by the yard staff he set the appropriate code by selector switch on teh control box which was on the block shelf - and listened in case the yard staff shouted.  The driver worked directly under the control of the fasjhing light until he was out of sight of sight from which point he worked (or was supposed to work) according to handsignals from the yard staff.

 

Later installations elsewhere worked differently and tended to be controlled by the Shunter (e.g.  at Theale, and Westbury for setting back into the Down Yard) but most were replaced by use of back-to-back radios at locations where sighting was not good enough for handsignalling.   Most of these other systems simply illuminated with a white light meaning set back.  

 

One very unusual GWR oddity was a distant signal for s ground disc used for a setting back movement.  These were extremely rare (unless someone knows different?) with probably the best known example being at Aberdare ex GWR station (it was removed in 1955).   There was also one, of a which a photo exists, in the Friars Jcn area (possibly worked by Acton East?).  Reputedly there was a third one somewhere in, maybe, the Wrexham area but I have never seen a photo of it.  In appearance it was a normal Backing Signal with a distant signal 'notch' in the end of the arm.

[Michael Hodgson]

35 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

One very unusual GWR oddity was a distant signal for s ground disc used for a setting back movement.  These were extremely rare (unless someone knows different?) with probably the best known example being at Aberdare ex GWR station (it was removed in 1955).   There was also one, of a which a photo exists, in the Friars Jcn area (possibly worked by Acton East?).  Reputedly there was a third one somewhere in, maybe, the Wrexham area but I have never seen a photo of it.  In appearance it was a normal Backing Signal with a distant signal 'notch' in the end of the arm.

 

I suppose that style makes perfect sense if used in conjunction with a backing signal, but seems a bit odd with a ground disc, even though the backing signal was just a glorified elevated shunt signal designed to overcome sighting problems.  Would it be worked by a separate lever like a proper distant, or would it be arranged as a repeater so that you wouldn't have to throw two levers back in an emergency?

[The Stationmaster]

31 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I suppose that style makes perfect sense if used in conjunction with a backing signal, but seems a bit odd with a ground disc, even though the backing signal was just a glorified elevated shunt signal designed to overcome sighting problems.  Would it be worked by a separate lever like a proper distant, or would it be arranged as a repeater so that you wouldn't have to throw two levers back in an emergency?

The one at Aberdare was worked by a separate lever which was released by either of the two levers which worked a double ground dsc.  

 

Logically it would no doubt make a bit more sense as a distant for a Backing Signal but as these discs performed the same job as a Backing Signal it was really more a matter of semantics than anything else.   A photo reputedly of 1920s origin (but possibly taken later?) definitely shows the ground disc(s) to which it applied.

[LMS2968]

I don't think these dummies were exclusively WR. I'm sure I have seen one of these and remember being a bit puzzled by it. It might have been on the old Liverpool & Manchester line but after fifty years, who knows?

[Steadfast]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Later installations elsewhere worked differently and tended to be controlled by the Shunter (e.g.  at Theale, and Westbury for setting back into the Down Yard) but most were replaced by use of back-to-back radios at locations where sighting was not good enough for handsignalling.   Most of these other systems simply illuminated with a white light meaning set back.  

The set back lights up the bank towards Dilton Marsh are still existent and certainly a year or so back were still functional, despite radios having taken over. When pressing the button outside the shunters cabin, a light illuminates for the shunter confirming W699 and W705 are both off, and the set back move can begin. At the same time the set back lights illuminate. 

 

These days the shunter then starts walking into the yard, calling the train back on the radio, though presumably pre radio they stayed put with their finger on the button. The set back lights extinguish when the button is released.

 

Jo

Edited January 28 by Steadfast

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

I don't think these dummies were exclusively WR. I'm sure I have seen one of these and remember being a bit puzzled by it. It might have been on the old Liverpool & Manchester line but after fifty years, who knows?

The Backing Distants  weren't dummies - they were semaphore signals with 2 foot arms.

[LMS2968]

As I said, I was a bit puzzled but the one I recall was a circular dummy, unusual in being yellow. I wish I could remember where it was and its purpose.

[bécasse]

Shunt discs (dollies, dummies, w.h.y.) with yellow stripes were discs which could be passed in the on position if the relevant points were set appropriately - typically towards a head shunt - but could not be passed when "on" if the points were set towards a running road. They displayed a yellow light at night when "on".

 

They were introduced by the LMSR, LNER and SR (but not by the GWR) in the very early 1930s. The WR started to do the same only in the early 1950s and then generally only for new works. Prior to their introduction the shunt discs concerned were red and the requirement to pass these when "on" was considered undesirable by the post-Great War committees charged with examining future British signalling requirements, that was why the change was made.

[Michael Hodgson]

15 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Shunt discs (dollies, dummies, w.h.y.)

 

Also called "dwarf signals", or "dodds" in the east of England, apparently after one Tommy Dodd, a diminutive round faced music-hall artist.

Perhaps there was a similarly well-known Dolly somewhere in the West Country?  Not to be confused with a doll, which is one of the shorter signal posts supported by a bracket signal or a gantry.

No idea where Dummy comes from.

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

No idea where Dummy comes from.

That's a particularly confusing one, as the term "dummy" suggests that it doesn't change its aspect.  In the topsy-turvy world of signalling jargon that would be a Fixed signal.  

Edited January 29 by Edwin_m

[Jeremy Cumberland]

8 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

That's a particularly confusing one, as the term "dummy" suggests that it doesn't change its aspect.  In the topsy-turvy world of signalling jargon that would be a Fixed signal.  

Oh what a minefield terminology can be. In absence of any other information, the expression "fixed signal" is more usually a signal whose position is fixed (it is firmly secured to the ground), not one whose aspect is fixed. Topsy-turvy indeed!

 

[LMS2968]

59 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

That's a particularly confusing one, as the term "dummy" suggests that it doesn't change its aspect.  In the topsy-turvy world of signalling jargon that would be a Fixed signal.  

That by definition would have to be a distant signal, otherwise it's a stop block, and the tern is Fixed Distant. There are some in preservation; there are or possibly were one or two on the Severn Valley Railway