Another land slip

[Phil Himsworth]

An aerial picture of the Telford / Oakengates landslip;

 

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/local-hubs/telford/oakengates/2024/03/12/in-pictures-workers-tackle-telford-landslip-thats-caused-travel-chaos-on-shropshires-rail-network/

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the nearby development, it's a pretty big embankment, that bit isn't particularly near to anything new and it has been extremely wet recently. There have been quite a few trees fall around here recently just because the ground has become so soft it won't hold them up any more.

[ess1uk]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-shropshire-68575985

 

[ess1uk]

'I’m sorry to passengers'' - Network Railway apologise for disruption due to repairs (msn.com)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/i-m-sorry-to-passengers-network-railway-apologise-for-disruption-due-to-repairs/ar-BB1jL74Q

[phil-b259]

On 10/03/2024 at 20:11, TheSignalEngineer said:

Looking at the pictures of the Wellington - Oakengates slip there's about four times as much ballast below sleeper level as when I used to work along there in the 1970s. That would be about 3 - 4 tonnes more stone per metre of railway, plus the extra weight of concrete sleepers and heavier rail.

In one sense that’s not a problem - adding more ballast to restore the profile is something that goes way back to the pre-grouping era and not simply a modern phenomenon 
 

However repeated topping up of the ballast does suggest the embankment had been slumping / sinking for quite a while and has long been in need of repair work.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

51 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

In one sense that’s not a problem - adding more ballast to restore the profile is something that goes way back to the pre-grouping era and not simply a modern phenomenon 
 

However repeated topping up of the ballast does suggest the embankment had been slumping / sinking for quite a while and has long been in need of repair work.

 

 

A bit like the Mam Tor Road then. The council just kept levelling that up with more stone for about 50 years.

 

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

A bit like the Mam Tor Road then. The council just kept levelling that up with more stone for about 50 years.

 

 

Indeed they did, till it got to the stage that someone realised it was a waste of money. Fortunately in the case of Mam Torr the road could simply be closed thus solving the issue - not an option for the railway network alas.

 

You could argue the same is happening now with potholes where councils apply a short term fix rather than do a proper dig down and rebuild / full re-surface because a lack of funds but a need to keep roads open.

 

Mind you as I said pre-grouping / the big 4 were just as bad - they loved using loco ash to rear bank slips (because it was free) rather than do a proper rebuild of earthworks....

Edited March 20 by phil-b259

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

Fortunately in the case of Mam Torr the road could simply be closed thus solving the issue

Didn't really solve the issue, just cut off that end of Castleton to all but light vehicles. Only way in and out is Wynatt's Pass. It pleased some high-ups in the National Park and National Trust as they no longer had lorries past their mansions 😉

[john new]

13 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Didn't really solve the issue, just cut off that end of Castleton to all but light vehicles. Only way in and out is Wynatt's Pass. It pleased some high-ups in the National Park and National Trust as they no longer had lorries past their mansions 😉

One at Ventnor's Underciffe in the news today. Too expensive to repair, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-68597533   The gist seems to be there were funds available from the national highways pot but not enough to actually fix it. One sniffs an air of political jiggery pokery, namely announce a substantial (but not big enough) wodge of cash just before an election. The hope being it won't be taken up but might sway the electorate your way. Just suspicious, it might not have happened that way obviously but how many times have the same projects been announced but no bulldozers ever hit the ground. Cynic, me!! 

[stewartingram]

40 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

A bit like the Mam Tor Road then. The council just kept levelling that up with more stone for about 50 years.

 

Looks like a normal road in the Fens round here. We seem to manage quite well with them.

[uax6]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

Looks like a normal road in the Fens round here. We seem to manage quite well with them.

Aye, thats a good road for the Cambridgeshire fens.... Us in the Norfolk Fens have lovely smooth well maintained roads....😵

 

Andy G

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Looks like a normal road in the Fens round here. We seem to manage quite well with them.

 

5 hours ago, uax6 said:

Aye, thats a good road for the Cambridgeshire fens.... Us in the Norfolk Fens have lovely smooth well maintained roads....😵

 

Andy G

Mam Tor Road is pretty good on a mountain bike, almost as good as some Red sections at trail centres. Navigating round that step by the dog walkers is a bit technical and one section near the top is getting a bit narrow to ride. If you misjudge that one the best bet is to try to fall towards the high ground and let the bike go over the side if you have to. Must take the GoPro next time I'm over that way.

[KingEdwardII]

17 hours ago, john new said:

Ventnor's Underciffe in the news today. Too expensive to repair

Forget expense - the whole darned hillside is disappearing into the sea there. It would be a King Canute exercise to try and stop that, no matter how much money was thrown at it. Time to give up and rebuild elsewhere.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Daddyman]

21 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

a King Canute exercise 

Surely he'd have told them to rebuild elsewhere too? 

[Southernman46]

Short notice disruption on the SWML this weekend due to yet another land slip - this time at Farnborough on the down side cutting slope approaching the station.

To be fair to NR this time, they were in a cleft stick with this one - ISTR back in my time on this section - this very steep cutting slope was host to some huge & overhanging trees - one in particular was a absolute monster. It was always a worry that one of these would come down in the dark on a 90 mph curve - but it always seemed to be in the "too difficult" pile for the off-track section though. NR has taken advantage of the blockages caused by other failures on the route / renewal possessions in recent times to cut down and completely remove these but have denuded the slope in the process - the remains of the "monster" disappearing only relatively recently. Despite remedial measures the face has slipped in places - the works are presumably to make further provisions to hopefully secure the slope.

Means I've got to unexpectedly now drive to / fro Andover to ensure I get home after work on Sat & Sun 🙄.

[lmsforever]

On 20/03/2024 at 22:36, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

Mam Tor Road is pretty good on a mountain bike, almost as good as some Red sections at trail centres. Navigating round that step by the dog walkers is a bit technical and one section near the top is getting a bit narrow to ride. If you misjudge that one the best bet is to try to fall towards the high ground and let the bike go over the side if you have to. Must take the GoPro next time I'm over that way.

Winats Pass is a hell of a climb, used go there in the sixties and seventies to ride cycling hill climb races up it  always middle of field of 120  used to race these events all over the country but enjoyed the northern ones best.Sometimes we drove around Mam Tor nice views   but occasionaly they were working there on rebuilding it overall its a very nice part of the world.

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Winats Pass is a hell of a climb

I'm past doing it on an ordinary bike now but have done it a few times in the past even on an MTB. It's even tough (or slow) on an ebike. One day we were doing our old Kinder Round loop. over The Snake to Ladybower, Bamford, Castleton, Chinley, Hayfield and back to Glossop. Stopped at Hope for lunch and a westerly gale sprung up. Climbing up through the cutting above Castleton it was raining and the wind stopped me completely even with a motor. We raced back to Hope station and got the train to New Mills. Mam Nick from the Edale side is another killer.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

... on an MTB. ...

Motor Torpedo Boat ? - it must've been wet ! 

[ess1uk]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c724gj643m6o

[ess1uk]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-68726362

spending plan

[phil-b259]

Given this

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26367160

 

And

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/england-met-office-worcestershire-worcester-wales-b2522182.html#

 

I am not surprised….

 

And those who are trying to claim that it’s all down to inadequate maintenance need to take a reality check - yes maintenance has been neglected etc but it’s quite obvious that the volumes of rain we are getting now are a huge contributor to drainage being overwhelmed (however well the Victorians etc may have built it) and earthworks failing through saturation / liquefaction.

 

Edited April 3 by phil-b259

[Southernman46]

I've said much on the subject and managed track / lineside drainage through some of the wettest years on record WITHOUT it resulting in catastrophic slips etc, despite the neglect that existed in off-track maintenance during the 1992 -2000 period so feel I know something about the reality of the issue and maintenance does play a HUGE part in dealing with it and it's not like NR can say they are unprepared because they've had a whole department dedicated to the weather and its effect on the infrastructure since the late 90's (Railtrack era included). I've attended more pointless EWAT talking shops that I care to remember in the past - an quite honestly it became a refuge for many that were no good at anything else.

It is marvellous having the high engineered track systems of today - fastclips, concrete bearer S&C and the systems to install it etc etc - it all looks nice and enables savings in Patrolling and Production staff costs etc. - but if it's laid on poor formation due to drainage issues or not adequately maintained (see GWML) it is meaningless.

An emerging issue in recent years is definitely that there are areas now where drainage is required where maybe none existed before but that's still no excuse for letting the existing systems deteriorate further.

Just my subjective opinion as an experienced PW Engineer not in the front line anymore. I wouldn't couldn't be within NR these days and can only wonder at how people are struggling now ............................

and as usual I like to finish with a "war story"

Back in oh say, 2003-ish, I was responsible for the Leatherhead to Bookham / Dorking lines which are both on embankments south of L'head - the Bookham line turning sharp R and the Dorking continuing straight - there is (or was) a s large tract of land in the vee (not railway owned ISTR) but drained apparently by 6 culverts into the River Mole (this river has been forever entwined in my late NR railway life) - except it wasn't and had become a large lake. Enter the Mole Valley District Council (or whatever they were back then) "NR - we want this drained - can you make it work" ?

"No problem - sez I" 

Just before we were going to set about jetting and clearing these culverts to let the backed up water flow into the Mole somebody had tipped off the NRA and a very earnest young lady (where do they find them) who demanded a site meeting which we had - at which she pointed out that said "lake" water had been there a while and was effectively stagnant and if we thought we were going to clean out the culverts all at once and dump this stuff into the Mole eco-system NR would pay dearly for it (possibly in blood as it seemed at the time). 

Anyhow a suitable compromised plan of phased culvert cleaning was approved and happened and as far as I am aware we didn't poison half of Surrey in the process - neither did the embankment fall down even though it's feet has been unnecessarily saturated in water for ages. The land is probably housing now.

 

Edited April 5 by Southernman46
bod spolling

[SM42]

We may be getting more rain than before but it is not all arriving in one big dollop as a rule

 

Drainage generally seems to work where it has been maintained, mainly why rivers are getting overful, I  suspect and the country is not disappearing under flood waters except where one would expect it to when a river is in flood. 

 

Not maintaining drains is what causes water to back up and go / stay where it's not wanted. 

Steady and persistent rainfall should be easily dealt with. 

 

Those at the bottom of the  system ( hill)  may however have  problems as a result 

 

Huge convective rainfall events that dump 10s of mm in a few minutes do not happen everyday.

 

Yes there is more rain,  but it should not be overwhelming a drainage system in the amounts it is currently falling. 

 

For instance. 

 

Our patio ( around 30 sq m ) drains towards the lawn. At the edge is a land drain that runs to a soakaway at the bottom of the garden. 

 

The going is soft on the lawn in general, but where the drain runs it is significantly drier, to the extent that the grass struggles  to grow.

 

If that small system can cope then a properly planned, ( we made it up as we went) engineered and maintained system should do so. 

 

Yes rainfall amounts have increased, but the fundamentals of water management remain the same. 

 

Hear that? 

 

It's the chickens coming home 

 

Andy

[Southernman46]

3 hours ago, SM42 said:

Yes rainfall amounts have increased, but the fundamentals of water management remain the same. 

👍

[ess1uk]

And another 

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/work-begins-to-reinstate-railway-test-site-in-leicestershire-after-a-landslip-forced-line-to-close

[Wickham Green too]

What better place to test your landslip restoration & future-proofing techniques !!?!