Another land slip

[Forward!]

51 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Good maintenance will give far fewer problems even with change, and buy time to make whatever alterations and changes are needed.

 

Plus there's no point in making all those changes you're arguing for if they're not going to be properly maintained either, otherwise it's just another case of doing the big fancy thing that's supposedly the solution to everything and ignoring the ongoing basics again.

 

I think our positions are entirely compatible. I absolutely agree that good continued maintenance of what we have is necessary, but such an approach can't be perpetuated indefinitely. Despite best efforts our existing infrastructure will fail because it was never designed to perform in the conditions it is now experiencing. Fact. You are also absolutely correct that investment in alternatives without the accompaying systemic support for its continued maintenance is as good as doing nothing at all. In my view though, it's a question of re-scaling the thinking. If, for example, a railway earthwork fails, the question should not be "how do we keep fixing it", it should be "should a railway even exist in this location at all- why not build a new one over there instead?". These are mega££££billion decisions that few governments seem willing to grapple with because the economic benefit is massively subservient to the short-term political dynamics. 

 

Serious thought needs to be given to more fundamental, systemic change. Anything less than about 30 years in the future is basically tomorrow when it comes to climate change. There needs to be a recognition that old solutions only solve the old problems, not the new ones. The battle I encounter in my day job is arguing just how radical, how comprehensive, and how urgent change needs to be! 

 

Will

[Michael Hodgson]

28 minutes ago, Forward! said:

 

Serious thought needs to be given to more fundamental, systemic change. Anything less than about 30 years in the future is basically tomorrow when it comes to climate change.

 

Give it as much serious thought as you like, the political realities aren't going to change unless whole the political system is changed. 

I see no evidence to suggest that a radical political revolution is approaching.  Putting the part leaders up against the wall facing a firing squad is probably a bit OTT to deal with a series of landlips on the railways.  The couple of last times we have experienced significant changes were Covid and WW2, and we still have a 2-party system run by the same sort of people, although the economy changed somewhat during and following both.  So it will take something like a rerun of the 1947 floods before climate change will  be taken seriously.

 

[Halvarras]

Newquay branch from Middleway Crossing looking towards Newquay on 1st February. This stretch always looks like this regardless of the time of year and how many weed-killing trains pass by. IETs look a little out of place on such track during the summer months.

[Southernman46]

11 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

How long has the neglect been going on?  Since the old maintenance regimes were abandoned in the 60s and 70s?  It can't be easy to maintain drainage when trees are growing up and pushing their roots through everything and plenty of main lines were becoming well wooded by the mid 1980s.

We still were doing a bl**dy good job (in Wessex at least) into the late 2000's despite having to deal with the raping of maintenance organisations that occurred between 1992 & 2000. As someone said above basic maintenance isn't sexy BUT IT WILL keep the railway running for years to come.

[phil-b259]

15 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

We still were doing a bl**dy good job (in Wessex at least) into the late 2000's despite having to deal with the raping of maintenance organisations that occurred between 1992 & 2000. As someone said above basic maintenance isn't sexy BUT IT WILL keep the railway running for years to come.

 

If you thought it was bad back then - let me tell you its many many times worse now.

 

But as the bean counters in Whitehall keep telling us the railway costs the taxpayers too much so cuts, cuts and more cuts to staff are essential to deliver tax cuts.... ahem, I mean 'value for the taxpayer'....

Edited February 13 by phil-b259

[Wickham Green too]

Presumably it doesn't cost too much to maintain the road/motorway network ??!? ☹️

[melmerby]

The train services with the blockage have been interesting

Many Avanti southbound trains via the West Midlands were going as far as Wolverhampton, then returning to Stafford for a trip down the Trent Valley, passing through Rugby at a time little different from if it had travelled through Birmingham

One due to start from Birmingham did just that but it left about 17 mins late in the opposite direction to that scheduled and also went to Stafford to go down the Trent Valley, it was however somewhat more than a hour late by the time it got to Rugby.

I don't suppose the Rugeley line is passed for Pendos,

 

LNWR services are terminating at Coventry where there is supposed to be Bustitution to Northampton.

 

Pity Avanti couldn't use some of their new 80x bimodes and go from Brum to Nuneaton on diesel. Stopping to pick up any ex Coventry passengers.🙂

Edited February 13 by melmerby

[phil-b259]

19 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably it doesn't cost too much to maintain the road/motorway network ??!? ☹️

To be fair given the awful state of many of our trunk roads I don’t think they are in that better position.

 

What both suffer from is an over abundance  of management drones churning out pretty brochures and webpages or buying fancy IT kit thinking it is a good substitute for proper maintenance.

 

Of course that suits HM Treasury just fine…

Edited February 14 by phil-b259

[Michael Hodgson]

46 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably it doesn't cost too much to maintain the road/motorway network ??!? ☹️

You don't have potholes down your way then?

[Wickham Green too]

My road IS potholes .............................................................. but it's 'unadopted' - for some reason - and we have to fill them in ourselves !

[Reorte]

12 hours ago, Halvarras said:

Newquay branch from Middleway Crossing looking towards Newquay on 1st February. This stretch always looks like this regardless of the time of year and how many weed-killing trains pass by. IETs look a little out of place on such track during the summer months.

Nice signal though.

 

The idea of IETs going down there is rather surreal though; I'd never thought about it but HSTs did so I suppose IETs do now.

Edited February 14 by Reorte

[Forward!]

12 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably it doesn't cost too much to maintain the road/motorway network ??!? ☹️

 

DfT claims it costs less to maintain road/motorway road earthworks because they were constructed (more or less) to modern standards. They commissioned some research in 2021 that found that railway earthworks were much more likely to be built on cuttings or embankments which do not meet modern standards and as such steep embankment slopes increase the risk of slips. The UK’s third Climate Change Risk Assessment (2021) claimed that older, less well compacted assets such as those supporting the rail network (i.e. embankments made by simply tipping spoil and allowing natural settling) are deteriorating at a faster rate due to increased rainfall than newer assets built to more modern standards. I'm no civil engineer so I don't have the patience or skill to read the science, but my takeaway from the research I've read is motorways=new, railways= old and knackered.

 

And again- the scale of the problem is staggering. Network Rail is responsible for 70,000 soil cuttings, 22,000 rock cuttings and 100,000 embankments- the overwhelming majority of which are over 100 years old, and much of them are over 150.

Edited February 14 by Forward!

[KingEdwardII]

13 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably it doesn't cost too much to maintain the road/motorway network

Perhaps you have not driven much recently and played the game of "dodge the potholes". The road maintenance budget has been savaged equally much.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Dunalastair]

1 hour ago, Forward! said:

 

DfT claims it costs less to maintain road/motorway road earthworks because they were constructed (more or less) to modern standards. They commissioned some research in 2021 that found that railway earthworks were much more likely to be built on cuttings or embankments which do not meet modern standards and as such steep embankment slopes increase the risk of slips. 

 

 

Our local 'modern standards' road is the A14, with a 12 mile new section being completed just a few years ago with a £1B price-tag. While the cutting sides are not obviously slipping much (helped by wide verges making the cuttings 400 feet wide - much more land take than historic railways) the embankments for the over-bridges seem to be slumping significantly, with remedial works requiring road closures. And going back to mid-20th century motorways, I seem to remember seeing a good few cutting side repairs over the last few years. So the standards in terms of gradients may be better, but geology and poor materials still seem to be causing issues. 

[locoholic]

On 13/02/2024 at 09:18, 62613 said:

Except that the hypothetical worst case scenario happened. You don't think it a good idea to investigate why, so that prventive measures can be taken to prevent a re - occurrence? Speaking as a non - railway person.

No, the worst case scenario didn't happen. This is a small slope failure in an area of flat terrain - talk of Glen Ogle etc is ludicrous. By your logic the whole rail network should be closed down whilst every cutting and embankment is inspected not for actual slippage, but for the potential for slippage. Rail formations have had 150 years of weathering, so the potential for slope failure is significant.

Just as bad as the over-reaction to this minor event is the failure to divert trains via Nuneaton, as would have happened thirty years ago. Now such measures, designed to minimise disruption to passengers, are judged too difficult and expensive, and the passengers can just get lost. Not a great incentive for people to use rail.

[melmerby]

6 minutes ago, locoholic said:

Just as bad as the over-reaction to this minor event is the failure to divert trains via Nuneaton, as would have happened thirty years ago.

How?

Fairly intensive all electric operation. Where are all the suitable diesel helpers going to come from?

If it was a planned stoppage alternative arrangements could be made but this happend Sunday PM with little time to organise any replacements.

Edited February 14 by melmerby

[locoholic]

46 minutes ago, melmerby said:

How?

Fairly intensive all electric operation. Where are all the suitable diesel helpers going to come from?

If it was a planned stoppage alternative arrangements could be made but this happend Sunday PM with little time to organise any replacements.

Your comment merely highlights the fact that the fragmented structure of the rail industry has resulted in a complete lack of resilience. Alternative arrangements are rarely made, even when there are planned engineering works. As I said earlier, rail is now regarded as expensive and unreliable - the transport choice of last resort.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, locoholic said:

Your comment merely highlights the fact that the fragmented structure of the rail industry has resulted in a complete lack of resilience. Alternative arrangements are rarely made, even when there are planned engineering works. As I said earlier, rail is now regarded as expensive and unreliable - the transport choice of last resort.

I'm not so sure that even 30 yrears ago there would've been suitable resources for diversions onto a non electric route.

 

Maybe there should be a fleet of Black 5s and Mk1 stock on stand by?😄

[TheSignalEngineer]

16 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

To be fair given the awful state of many of our trunk roads I don’t think they are in that better position.

 

What both suffer from is an over abundance  of management drones churning out pretty brochures and webpages or buying fancy IT kit is a good substitute for proper maintenance.

 

Of course that suits HM Treasury just fine…

The last big slip on the Snake Pass happened 2 years ago. Plenty of surveys and reports done but no action yet. It's estimated to need £4 million to do the piling to hold it up at the Alport Bridge slip alone. All they have done in the past is put more tarmac on to level it up. They should have had a trip to the other side of the hill, as that's exactly th solution they used for years on Mam Tor until it was abandoned.

[Reorte]

21 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I'm not so sure that even 30 yrears ago there would've been suitable resources for diversions onto a non electric route.

 

Maybe there should be a fleet of Black 5s and Mk1 stock on stand by?😄

It's in Woodhead isn't it?

[TheSignalEngineer]

20 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I'm not so sure that even 30 yrears ago there would've been suitable resources for diversions onto a non electric route.

 

Maybe there should be a fleet of Black 5s and Mk1 stock on stand by?😄

Thirty years ago I used to watch regular  Nuneaton Drags from my office in the Rotunda.  A few Saltley men with a 47, 56 or 58 each was all you needed.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Another 'money saving' method on ballast cleaning jobs in the 1970s and 1980s was 'Spoil to Bank' where the conveyor of the machine was angled to throw the muck about ten feet from the track instead of into wagons to the tip. Within about six months it had started to migrate down the bank burying cable routes, piling up against location case doors and clogging drains. 

[john new]

On 13/02/2024 at 11:29, Forward! said:

It's significant that in 2020-21 the UK was 9% wetter than it was between 1961-1990. And when rainfall events occur, they are generally more intensive than they were in the past: more rain is falling in less time. Indeed- between 1862 and 2020 six of the ten wettest days on record have occurred in the last 20 years. A very significant part of that increase in rainfall is concentrated within the months October-March, which exacerbates the effect of rainfall events on localised flooding, damage to transport infrastructure, etc. There's also a regional effect- the North West and Scotland is seeing a greater increase in intensive rainfall than the South and East. As climate change warms the air, it can hold more moisture (7% more moisture for every 1 degree Celsius increase in air temperature), so the UK is likely to experience more dramatic rainfall events in the future.

 

Climate change, even if action is taken now, will continue to effect our fundamental transport infrastructure without extensive (and very expensive) adaptation. Victorian rail infrastructure was never designed to cope with extreme rainfall (or for that matter, to cope with extreme heat either.)

 

Will

News item on the BBC confirming. Worcestershire Cricket Club ground flooded as many times in the last 20 years as in it took the previous 100 to attain.

[Southernman46]

12 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Another 'money saving' method on ballast cleaning jobs in the 1970s and 1980s was 'Spoil to Bank' where the conveyor of the machine was angled to throw the muck about ten feet from the track instead of into wagons to the tip. Within about six months it had started to migrate down the bank burying cable routes, piling up against location case doors and clogging drains. 

as well as being contaminated waste .............................

[locoholic]

56 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

All they have done in the past is put more tarmac on to level it up. 

Isn't that effectively what Network Rail did at Nuneham Viaduct for years, until the weight of it all got too much?