Peterborough North

[great northern]

30 minutes ago, jazzer said:

 

Thanks for that explanation. I was wondering what an L1 was doing on that sort of journey rather than KX outer suburbans but it is perfectly feasible that it would cover for a B1 although I doubt if the engine crew would be happy about it ! Let’s hope the photographer is on his toes a bit more if/when it appears again. . That afternoon stopper seems to have disappeared from the 1960 timetable so he might not get many more chances ! 

And yes, the Hornby L1 is irisistable!

BTW , the weathering on Wild Swan must be as close to perfection as it is possible to get.

 That 2.45pm from Hitchin was part of a diagram for an artic five set which did actually start from KX. It then laid over at Hitchin for a while, before going on to PN. Would there have been an engine change at Hitchin, I wonder?  It is only 44 miles from Hitchin to Peterborough, with 93 minutes allowed for the journey, so I'd have thought crews wouldn't mind an L1 for that. I haven't got my books to hand at present, but I think this set then went on to form a Grantham local from PN, and may even have finally got to Nottingham, Obviously there would be engine changes en route though.

 

Eric Sawford's books show that Hitchin's L1's regularly got as far as Huntingdon, and PN is only 18 miles on from there. Having said that, I have found only one picture of one at PN, and that is on an engineer's train.

 

Many thanks for the last sentence of your reply, which I hope Tim sees. This is a sad time for him, so anything to brighten his days is welcome, I'm sure.

[CUTLER2579]

Crews always complained that the L1 was a very rough riding engine.  

[jazzer]

7 hours ago, great northern said:

 That 2.45pm from Hitchin was part of a diagram for an artic five set which did actually start from KX. It then laid over at Hitchin for a while, before going on to PN. Would there have been an engine change at Hitchin, I wonder?  It is only 44 miles from Hitchin to Peterborough, with 93 minutes allowed for the journey, so I'd have thought crews wouldn't mind an L1 for that. I haven't got my books to hand at present, but I think this set then went on to form a Grantham local from PN, and may even have finally got to Nottingham, Obviously there would be engine changes en route though.

 

Eric Sawford's books show that Hitchin's L1's regularly got as far as Huntingdon, and PN is only 18 miles on from there. Having said that, I have found only one picture of one at PN, and that is on an engineer's train.

 

Many thanks for the last sentence of your reply, which I hope Tim sees. This is a sad time for him, so anything to brighten his days is welcome, I'm sure.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Gilbert. I am going to have to try to get hold of a copy of a 1958 timetable, (which are probably like gold dust now ) . I am constantly amazed at the number of secondary services you refer to at/different times that had disappeared by 1960. . The 1960 timetable shows no afternoon stoppers from KX to PN until the early evening rush. 

 

As for the long layover at Hitchin, it seems to have been a bit of a GNR/LNER foible to have trains hanging around at a station mid journey for no apparent reason. I have come across this before, notably at Broxbourne but never really found a satisfactory explanation. Apparently it happened quite a lot on the LBSCR and SECR to allow for the loading of milk churns and the practice continued for years after milk churns had finished because the timetablers simply never thought about it ! I doubt that was the case on the GN mainline though.

[great northern]

5 hours ago, CUTLER2579 said:

Crews always complained that the L1 was a very rough riding engine.  

Yes, but it didn't have to get up much speed to keep to the booked times, and spent a lot of time on the slow goods line, so not too much bone jarring I would think. A run down B1 was very rough as well, wasn't it?  At least the L1 had a fully enclosed cab when the weather was bad.

[great northern]

3 hours ago, jazzer said:

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Gilbert. I am going to have to try to get hold of a copy of a 1958 timetable, (which are probably like gold dust now ) . I am constantly amazed at the number of secondary services you refer to at/different times that had disappeared by 1960. . The 1960 timetable shows no afternoon stoppers from KX to PN until the early evening rush. 

 

As for the long layover at Hitchin, it seems to have been a bit of a GNR/LNER foible to have trains hanging around at a station mid journey for no apparent reason. I have come across this before, notably at Broxbourne but never really found a satisfactory explanation. Apparently it happened quite a lot on the LBSCR and SECR to allow for the loading of milk churns and the practice continued for years after milk churns had finished because the timetablers simply never thought about it ! I doubt that was the case on the GN mainline though.

I chose 1958 for that very reason- it was the last year and in many cases the last timetable when the small village stations were still open. Once they went, there was no need for these parliamentary trains dating right back to early GN days to be run.

[great northern]

Another look at Great Central as it nears the end of the PSR, and can build up speed for the climb of Stoke bank.

 

 

 

and then the inbound Harwich appears, and we get a look at another lovely clean B17.

 

 

[31A]

40 minutes ago, great northern said:

Yes, but it didn't have to get up much speed to keep to the booked times, and spent a lot of time on the slow goods line, so not too much bone jarring I would think. A run down B1 was very rough as well, wasn't it?  At least the L1 had a fully enclosed cab when the weather was bad.

 

They wouldn't have needed to turn it round, either.

[great northern]

This morning we have another treat for the many members of the B17 appreciation society. Donny Rovers is seen broadside on as it is about to plunge under Crescent Bridge.

 

 

 

soon afterwards it is at journey's end, framed by the excursion platform's canopy and buildings. One of the nicest views on the layout, in my opinion, and well worth posting without any cropping at all.

 

 

[jazzer]

9 hours ago, 31A said:

 

They wouldn't have needed to turn it round, either.

 

 They probably would tun it round, though . It would need to visit the shed anyway for coal and water ,  otherwise it wouldn't get back to Hitchin, so might as well use the turntable while they were there. 

[great northern]

1 hour ago, jazzer said:

 

 They probably would tun it round, though . It would need to visit the shed anyway for coal and water ,  otherwise it wouldn't get back to Hitchin, so might as well use the turntable while they were there. 

One other factor is involved here. There wasn't a turntable at New England. There was a triangle instead, as at Grantham.  I have looked this up to make sure I'm right folks.

[CUTLER2579]

Without wishing to be argumentative Gilbert,that's no t strictly true. Grantham was unique in this country for being  the birthplace  of one Derek Betts, NO I digress. The means of turning locomotives was a Scissors Crossing as opposed to a Triangle.

Kind Regards,That One DB.

[jazzer]

5 hours ago, great northern said:

One other factor is involved here. There wasn't a turntable at New England. There was a triangle instead, as at Grantham.  I have looked this up to make sure I'm right folks.

Ah, I stand corrected. I had half an idea that it was a triangle but I didn’t bother to check . I think makes no difference to the need ( or perhaps drivers preference ) to turn the loco.

We had a similar sort of discussion on another thread when someone mentioned that the big tanks on the LBSCR always seem to be photographed chimney first. 

[FarrMan]

2 hours ago, CUTLER2579 said:

Without wishing to be argumentative Gilbert,that's no t strictly true. Grantham was unique in this country for being  the birthplace  of one Derek Betts, NO I digress. The means of turning locomotives was a Scissors Crossing as opposed to a Triangle.

Kind Regards,That One DB.

Could someone explain for the benefit of this ignoramous (i.e. me) how a scissors crossing can be used to turn an engine?

 

Lloyd

[Clive Mortimore]

25 minutes ago, FarrMan said:

Could someone explain for the benefit of this ignoramous (i.e. me) how a scissors crossing can be used to turn an engine?

 

Lloyd

Hi Lloyd

 

One must remember that Grantham's famous resident was not for turning, so the turn table was removed. With an allocation of pacifics and many visiting ones the turntable was too small. Instead of installing a suitable sized one ( I do not know why) there was a strange triangle scissors crossing arrangement. The 1965 OS map shows this layout despite the tracks having already been lifted. https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/491383/334905/12/100954

Edit you will need to zoom out

Edited June 18, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[CUTLER2579]

+Lloyd,

SEE ATTACHED SKETCH.Scan0019.pdf

Scan0019.pdf

[31A]

There was a turntable at Grantham depot originally, in fact it had a 70ft one for turning Pacifics and other big engines, but the foundations under the pivot collapsed and the ground beneath it was judged unsuitable for a new foundation, so the turning triangle scissors crossing type layout was installed instead, in 1951.

[Clive Mortimore]

3 minutes ago, 31A said:

There was a turntable at Grantham depot originally, in fact it had a 70ft one for turning Pacifics and other big engines, but the foundations under the pivot collapsed and the ground beneath it was judged unsuitable for a new foundation, so the turning triangle scissors crossing type layout was installed instead, in 1951.

Thanks Steve.

 

 Before typing I should have looked in my GNR loco shed book which has Grantham in it.

[31A]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Thanks Steve.

 

 Before typing I should have looked in my GNR loco shed book which has Grantham in it.

That's where I looked Clive (although I had a memory of having read it in the dim & distant past)!  

[great northern]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Thanks Steve.

 

 Before typing I should have looked in my GNR loco shed book which has Grantham in it.

So should I.

[great northern]

Today we played golf. There was a starter. He said the only thing he really needed to tell us that we were playing off yellow (forward) tees. He said that twice. Jolly good, we thought, after all it is a fun competition. We did rather well, but when we got in we were told that the competition was off white(back) tees, and that we were disqualified. Our protests were in vain, but it turned out we wouldn't have been in the prizes anyway. The guy who gave us the duff gen had disappeared, but we know where to find him.

 

On the back of that train from Harwich is a BSK. Appropriately for a train from the GE it is a short brake. It is also very nice, so it was photographed.

 

 

 

next to arrive was the afternoon Harrogate express, an easy task for gleaming A4 Lord Faringdon, as it comprised only eight coaches. Once again though, three of them were BS0s. One would need rather a lot of them, if one had not done things with cassettes.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, great northern said:

Today we played golf. There was a starter. He said the only thing he really needed to tell us that we were playing off yellow (forward) tees. He said that twice. Jolly good, we thought, after all it is a fun competition. We did rather well, but when we got in we were told that the competition was off white(back) tees, and that we were disqualified. Our protests were in vain, but it turned out we wouldn't have been in the prizes anyway. The guy who gave us the duff gen had disappeared, but we know where to find him.

 

On the back of that train from Harwich is a BSK. Appropriately for a train from the GE it is a short brake. It is also very nice, so it was photographed.

 

 

 

Hi Gilbert

 

They are as common as muck, even I have a half made one. It is a cut down Hornby "shortie" Gresley. I have also worked out that with some work to the corridor side I can make a GE section FK and a "normal" SK from two Hornby "shortie"Cks plus the left over bits from my BS+CL twin made from the same source.

A little bit of filler is needed in the roof department.

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

Hi Clive,

 

The BS+CL sounds great interesting. Can you show or direct me to a picture?

 

Andy

[great northern]

If Keith Pirt had been at PN now, we can all be sure where his camera would have been pointing. Our south end man also wanted to record the shine on Lord Faringdon, and a five minute stop gave him plenty of time.

 

 

 

After 60034 left, there was just a four minute wait before 60039 came in with the Up Northumbrian.

 

 

 

That headboard looked straight, both to my eye and through the viewfinder, but obviously it wasn't.

 

 

 

[FarrMan]

15 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Lloyd

 

One must remember that Grantham's famous resident was not for turning, so the turn table was removed. With an allocation of pacifics and many visiting ones the turntable was too small. Instead of installing a suitable sized one ( I do not know why) there was a strange triangle scissors crossing arrangement. The 1965 OS map shows this layout despite the tracks having already been lifted. https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/491383/334905/12/100954

Edit you will need to zoom out

Clive, many thanks for this explanation. So it is in effect a triangle narrowed in one direction by using a scissors crossover. This now makes sense to me.

 

Lloyd

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Hi Clive,

 

The BS+CL sounds great interesting. Can you show or direct me to a picture?

 

Andy

Hi Andy

 

They did appear about three years ago on "Sir's" thread, in fact photographed by him on LB.

 

I hope Gilbert doesn't mind, but I think these coaches would be of interest to many who follow this thread, after all they were built for Kings Cross outer suburban services and could well have found themselves as far north as Peterborough. They are based on diagrams 107 (Brake Second) and 108 (Composite Lavatory), I will apologise now because without checking I plonked the CL body on back to front when taking the photos. The posh passengers end should be towards the J50 which busily shunting them.

 

Unlike the CL of bogie coaches there was no side corridor where all passengers had access to the toilet. Only the two compartments either side of the loo could spend a penny. So using a Hornby or Kirk CL body would be wrong.

 

 

 

The sides are mirror images of each other. The CL was made from 2 Hornby "shortie" CKs and the BS from 2 BCKs. The fourth compartment on the BS despite the 1 on the door is a second/third class one. The odd thing about the Hornby shorties is the compartments are correct size, they appear to have made the toilets shorter and on the corridor side made the windows short. With the compartment sizes being right they are ideal for cut and shut non-gangway coaches of the types not available.

 

The new chassis is simply some plastic card laminated. I have reused the Hornby bogies, to me they look like Gresley bogies. I believe the center one should be a heavy duty one but on a moving train can you tell if a bogie is a heavy duty one?

 

The center coupling, pivot or what ever is very simple.

 

The bodies, still waiting the beading on the ends and on the van end, that is sheer laziness on my behalf as the micro strip is sat just behind the photographer. Interior is still to be made, it will not be fancy. I have reused the Hornby roofs, I found by cutting the roof at the point where the dome end starts they work out the right length for 51 ft non gangway coaches, and more to the point the ventilators are almost in the right places, so I ain't gonna move them. 

 

Thanks Gilbert for allowing me to share this on your thread.