Peterborough North

[thegreenhowards]

The 1605 was very much a secondary service with portions and all mark 1s in the carriage workings apart from the RB, although I imagine the odd Gresley or Thonpson carriage would have stood in. The RB is shown as a standard Gresley teak, but I think this was the service which Clive Carter claimed had one if the more exotic buffets in his backtrack article (d.275 or 258 from memory - I’m away at the moment and can’t check).

[great northern]

10 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

The 1605 was very much a secondary service with portions and all mark 1s in the carriage workings apart from the RB, although I imagine the odd Gresley or Thonpson carriage would have stood in. The RB is shown as a standard Gresley teak, but I think this was the service which Clive Carter claimed had one if the more exotic buffets in his backtrack article (d.275 or 258 from memory - I’m away at the moment and can’t check).

Dia 275 Andy. I just happened to have the article within easy reach.

[thegreenhowards]

4 minutes ago, great northern said:

Dia 275 Andy. I just happened to have the article within easy reach.

 

It’s a bit like a gospel isn’t it. Mine lives near my modelling bench. The wonders of ECML catering c.1958 - almost every train is different! 

 

I have had a pair of D.275 sides on order from Bill Bedford for quite a while now for my take on the train. 

 

 

[great northern]

Just now, thegreenhowards said:

 

It’s a bit like a gospel isn’t it. Mine lives near my modelling bench. The wonders of ECML catering c.1958 - almost every train is different! 

 

I have had a pair of D.275 sides on order from Bill Bedford for quite a while now for my take on the train. 

 

 

I've just looked. He shows two sets of dia 275 sides. One is shown as available, and the other "work needed". I can't fathom out what the difference between the two may be.

[thegreenhowards]

The one that is available is the rebuilt version. He sent me that initially even though I ordered the unrebuilt one, and I’m still waiting... I think they were rebuilt about 1960/1961, but don’t quote me on that.

[great northern]

I've just realised last night's pictures didn't load, so I'll have another go. We should have had another angle on the W1 and the Whistler.

 

 

and then a close up of 60700 waiting for the off.

 

 

[great northern]

12 hours ago, davidw said:

Any chance you can let me know the consist of the 4.05. Did it contain a triplet?

As promised David. It was as follows:-

 

BSO CK SK SK CK BSO BCK TSO SK RB FK BSK.

 

As Andy says, all are specified as MK1, except the buffet car.

 

According to the summer 58 book, the only West Riding trains containing a triplet were the 1020 Down, and the coresponding Up working at 5.33pm from Leeds.

[great northern]

On 28/06/2019 at 21:34, jazzer said:

 

I just love this thread . Almost every picture has something memorable or fascinating

Prince Of Wales 60054 : fresh from the works with not just any old double chimney but a Kychap. At first the Kychap arrangement was patented and subject to a heavy licence  fee so at first only four A4's had them but they were so successful that once the patent expired all the A4's and A3's were retro fitted together with the Peppercorn Pacifics and I am pretty certain that the double chimneyed V2's were Kylchap fitted to give them extra performance on the heavy  Scottish freights. 

The greatest success was on the A3's though. Kychap exhausts were fitted to the A3's at a cost of around £230 , a sizeable sum in the late '50's but so successful were  they in improving both performance and economy  that the cost was quickly recovered . It was said that Kychap fitted A3's were never short of steam even with poor coal and a relatively inexperienced fireman and even though only rated 7P top shed used then interchangeably with 8P rated  A4's on all but the most prestigious Top Link duties. The secret of the Kychap exhaust was the way it mixed smokebox gasses more efficiently , using three separate nozzles , but the downside was that it reduced the blast, which in turn lead to the fitting of the German style smoke deflectors on the A3's which some think ruined their appearance but personally I think looks great. 

I hope this little digression is of interest to some but it brings be to  something I was unaware of. 

Until Gilberts caption I had no idea that some A3's were fitted with A4 boilers in later years which I suppose may well have been partly responsible for their improved performance when fitted together  with Kychap exhausts. So, first question, is there any difference in outward appearance to identify whether it is an A3 or A4 boiler? At a guess, after studying photos I imagine it might be something to do with the  taper from the firebox down the first half of the boiler,  but its not clear so can anyone enlighten me (and no doubt others) on this ?

Secondly, the dome.  In Gilberts picture  Prince of Wales has a banjo dome but other boilers had a round dome. Most A3's had boiler changes in there lives ( Flying Scotsman apparently had 15 boilers in all ) so almost all of them had banjo domes at some times and round domes at other times in their lives, as boilers changed.  So My question is what was hidden away in the banjo domes that wasn't in the traditional round domes and what was the point of them ? It couldn't have been anything desperately important otherwise they would all have been fitted with one type or the other. Anyone know the answer ?

 

P. Dantic.

 

EDIT : Its actually Kylchap , not Kychap but my spell check is rather argumentative !

I've now had time to get some more detail on these queries. The easy one first:-

 

According to Peter Coster in the Book of the A3 Pacifics, there were two differences which identified the Dia 107 boilers. The easy one is the firebox inspection doors, which are level on a Dia 94, but inclined upwards toward the cab on a Dia 107. That's what I always look for. Also on a 107 the dome sat slightly further forward, but Coster says that it is difficult to see that difference.

 

As to types of dome, the original  A1s had a round dome to dia 94. When the A3s appeared they had a perforated steam collector, which came to be known as a banjo dome. If Tony Wright looks in on this, he can tell you more about the (mis)use of the term "banjo". These boilers were to Dia 94A, and were eventually fitted to the whole class by BR times I believe. However, our old friend Edward Thompson apparently preferred the appearance of the simple dome, and ordered nine more, to Dia 94HP.  Dia 107 started to be used in late 1954, so in later years there were three types, mainly 94A, just those nine 94HP, and a gradually increasing number of 107. They were interchanged at general overhaul, so it is essential to use Yeadon plus reliably dated pictures if one can find them when choosing what to model.

[davidw]

3 hours ago, great northern said:

As promised David. It was as follows:-

 

BSO CK SK SK CK BSO BCK TSO SK RB FK BSK.

 

As Andy says, all are specified as MK1, except the buffet car.

 

According to the summer 58 book, the only West Riding trains containing a triplet were the 1020 Down, and the coresponding Up working at 5.33pm from Leeds.

What and unusual mix!

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, great northern said:

I've now had time to get some more detail on these queries. The easy one first:-

 

According to Peter Coster in the Book of the A3 Pacifics, there were two differences which identified the Dia 107 boilers. The easy one is the firebox inspection doors, which are level on a Dia 94, but inclined upwards toward the cab on a Dia 107. That's what I always look for. Also on a 107 the dome sat slightly further forward, but Coster says that it is difficult to see that difference.

 

As to types of dome, the original  A1s had a round dome to dia 94. When the A3s appeared they had a perforated steam collector, which came to be known as a banjo dome. If Tony Wright looks in on this, he can tell you more about the (mis)use of the term "banjo". These boilers were to Dia 94A, and were eventually fitted to the whole class by BR times I believe. However, our old friend Edward Thompson apparently preferred the appearance of the simple dome, and ordered nine more, to Dia 94HP.  Dia 107 started to be used in late 1954, so in later years there were three types, mainly 94A, just those nine 94HP, and a gradually increasing number of 107. They were interchanged at general overhaul, so it is essential to use Yeadon plus reliably dated pictures if one can find them when choosing what to model.

Quite right, Gilbert,

 

I do look in from time to time............

 

The only LNER locomotives fitted with 'banjo' domes* were the last batch of A3s built - WINDSOR LAD to FIRDAUSSI; then (probably) only up to their first boiler change, when (if a 94A boiler were refitted) they received 'streamlined' domes.

 

What was underneath was a perforated steam collector, as fitted to the A4s, the V2s, the P2s, the four A2/1s, the rebuilt A2/2s and all Peppercorn's Pacifics as built. Most (if not all) other Thompson Pacifics got one; eventually. The device was better than a plain dome in that it limited 'surging' - water going into the dome. 

 

Beware the 'Bibles'. Yeadon gets it a bit wrong, Coster muddles up most dome descriptions, as does the RCTS. 

 

Beware even more the drawings - Roche, Skinley, Beattie and others. 'Banjo' domes appear all over the place. 

 

Regarding A3s with A4 boilers, I'm friendly with David Somers (son of Jack Somers, one time shedmaster at New England). The first time 35A got to know that A3s were being fitted with A4 boilers was when re-tubing a boiler, they found the new ones were too long! 

 

* the two V4s had a 'sort of' 'banjo' dome. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[great northern]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Quite right, Gilbert,

 

I do look in from time to time............

 

The only LNER locomotives fitted with 'banjo' domes* were the last batch of A3s built - WINDSOR LAD to FIRDAUSSI; then (probably) only up to their first boiler change, when (if a 94A boiler were refitted) they received 'streamlined' domes.

 

What was underneath was a perforated steam collector, as fitted to the A4s, the V2s, the P2s, the four A2/1s, the rebuilt A2/2s and all Peppercorn's Pacifics as built. Most (if not all) other Thompson Pacifics got one; eventually. The device was better than a plain dome in that it limited 'surging' - water going into the dome. 

 

Beware the 'Bibles'. Yeadon gets it a bit wrong, Coster muddles up most dome descriptions, as does the RCTS. 

 

Beware even more the drawings - Roche, Skinley, Beattie and others. 'Banjo' domes appear all over the place. 

 

Regarding A3s with A4 boilers, I'm friendly with David Somers (son of Jack Somers, one time shedmaster at New England). The first time 35A got to know that A3s were being fitted with A4 boilers was when re-tubing a boiler, they found the new ones were too long! 

 

* the two V4s had a 'sort of' 'banjo' dome. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

I knew I could rely on you Tony. You've explained it to me before, but of course I forgot.

[great northern]

Tonight we see D201 starting away towards London, perhaps with the crew being trained already thinking that the comfort of the diesel cab is a good place to be. They won't though when they find out that a good Pacific can beat it every time. I shall leave Clive to supply the appropriate accompanying noises.

 

 

 

Hard on modernisation's heels came some more coal.

 

 

 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, great northern said:

Tonight we see D201 starting away towards London, perhaps with the crew being trained already thinking that the comfort of the diesel cab is a good place to be. They won't though when they find out that a good Pacific can beat it every time. I shall leave Clive to supply the appropriate accompanying noises.

 

 

 

I can look up "Whistle while you work" on You Tube if you want Gilbert.

[great northern]

No more whistling can be heard, but our man standing by the Midland sidings can hear something approaching from the south.

 

 

 

It turns out to be a Clarence yard-Niddrie Class C, but no top link A4 this time. He has then to wait only a short time before an 02/2 appears with a Welwyn to Colwick mixed goods.

 

 

[great northern]

Tango in the (semi) dark.

 

 

 

and 4F from under the bridge.

 

 

[trw1089]

That last shot really shows how well those new sidings frame the picture, just lovely.

 

I do like the O2 as well, such a workhorse looking loco.

 

Cheers
Tony

[great northern]

0.6.0 workhorses this morning, but both on passenger duty. Another look at the 4F, now set against the Down side station buildings.

 

 

 

I got some slightly strange lighting effect with this one,and decided black and white would be best.

 

The shortest passenger formation of the day comes next, as the 4.45 from Grantham arrives, BSK CK is considered sufficient for the likely customer demand, and the J6 and crew have had an easy time.

 

 

This also looked better in b&w, but defects in photoshopping which weren't apparent earlier appeared when I saved the final version.

[Martin S-C]

That last one is a nice little train.

[great northern]

My mate and I have this evening reached the semi final of the Club Foursomes, which is good. The final, if we get there , is over 36 holes, which isn't so good.

 

Photos? Oh yes, J6 slowing for the end of its journey meets another Ivatt bringing in stock for the 5.57 to Kings Lynn.

 

 

 

The Ivatt then hurriedly reverses its train into number 4 bay, so that the 4.15 KX-Cleethorpes can run into Platform 3 in a few minutes time.

 

 

 

 

 

[jazzer]

On 30/06/2019 at 21:40, great northern said:

Tonight we see D201 starting away towards London, perhaps with the crew being trained already thinking that the comfort of the diesel cab is a good place to be. They won't though when they find out that a good Pacific can beat it every time. I shall leave Clive to supply the appropriate accompanying noises.

 

 

 

Hard on modernisation's heels came some more coal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

O.S. Nock would certainly concur with your assessment of an A4 over a class 40. According to him the 2450 drawbar horsepower that he recorded by Mallard pulling 415 tons gross at 80 mph UP Stoke Bank in 1963, was a1000dhp more than the type 4 things could deliver. 

[great northern]

The Cleethorpes duly arrives behind the usual nicely presented Immingham B1, and our man kept hoping that it would stop just before that fire devil got in the way, but it didn't.

 

 

No such problem from this angle though.

 

 

[great northern]

The Up White Rose left Leeds Central at 3.35pm, and now, two hours and twenty minutes later, it appears at PN. Quicksilver is in charge, and is captured gliding through at the obligatory 20mph.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by great northern
to correct spelling

[great northern]

Point the camera into the shadows cast by the roof, and we can continue to follow Quicksilver's stately progress towards home.

 

 

 

and somewhat closer too.

 

 

[great northern]

Still more Quicksilver tonight, first as seen from Crescent Bridge.

 

 

 

and then from ground level, and rather dangerously up  close.

 

 

 

More dangerous actually if something sneaks up quietly on the Down main.

[31A]

The view from Crescent Bridge seems to be a new and interesting perspective ....