Peterborough North

[great northern]

I cannot claim any knowledge of the prototype, but the most striking thing on seeing your photos is the different distance between running plate and cylinder. Each loco has a different dimension as far as I can see.

 

I take your point Jonathan. Prototype photos tend to suggest that 505/6 are nearer to being correct. I shall await TW's commrnts with interest.

[great northern]

I hope that to top all this Thompson publicity off, Tony Wright's article spurs one of the plastic RTR companies into producing one of the three sub-class variants. The A2-3 might be the best bet but an A2-2 'Cock '0 The North' would offer the eye-catching publicity...

 

Peterborough is so photogenic, the layout must rate as one of the best in the country now............Todays Borchester in fact.

 

An A2-2 is a streamlined Pennsy Duplex against a Lanky Belpaire 3F 0-6-0 & Tender....

 

Larry, you have made my day, or possibly even my year. I loved Borchester, and to have my layout compared to Frank Dyer's work is very special.

[great northern]

Today I decided to make one of my occasional attempts at reproducing a prototype scene. I rather wish I hadn't, but here it is.

 

The copyright of the original image belongs to Andrew C. Ingram. I publish it with his kind permission, on the understanding that it shall not be further reproduced. So, here is a Kings Cross V2 swinging across from the Up slow at the South end of the station in 1958.

 

 

 

Not very good I'm afraid. I can't model the hotel extension, which should dominate the background, the water crane shouldn't be in shot, and it's the wrong time of year. One major triumph though, the ballast bin on the original isn't bedded into the ballast any better than mine.

[will5210]

 

Not very good I'm afraid. I can't model the hotel extension, which should dominate the background, the water crane shouldn't be in shot, and it's the wrong time of year. One major triumph though, the ballast bin on the original isn't bedded into the ballast any better than mine.

 

Actually I think its got plenty more things right than wrong!

[JeffP]

LOL at the ballast bin not bedded in.

 

I think your effort not bad at all, there is more right with it than wrong and what IS wrong is either minor, beyond your control, or in the future.

 

Where SHOULD the water crane be?

[landscapes]

Right, we will now get away from the cascade of new models which are suddenly appearing, and turn instead to another very interesting subject. TW will be doing an article for BRM soon which should be quite fascinating. I'll not say much more yet, but it did involve his asking me if he could photograph some of Tim's A2 conversions. He has also given me permission to post the results on here, so below you will see two TW A2/2's, plus the one Tim did for me.He also photographed my two A2/3's, and will no doubt be getting some comparison shots of more of his own. This might give you some idea of what his piece in BRM will be about.

 

 

First up is Tony's build of Mons Meg, from the Crownline kit, with modified cab sides- those supplied with the kit just weren't right.

 

 

Staying in numerical order, here is Thane of Fife, as recently done by Tim as a RTR conversion.

 

 

Last comes Wolf of Badenoch, built by Tony from the DJH kit.

 

Both of Tony's engines have Ian Rathbone paint jobs. There you are then - three A2/2's all posed as nearly as possible in the same way. TW and I would be interested to read your comments.

 

I shall now photograph TW's A2/3 which I have on loan, and then do a similar exercise with A2/3's.

 

Hi Gilbert

 

Just back from a week in the sunny Med, missed all the recent bad weather and more important the daily updates on RMweb as well, so I have a lot of catching up to do.

 

Great photos of the Thompson A2/2 and A2/3 kit and converted RTR locos, Peterborough North just seem's to get better and better.

 

I see the Kit built v RTR conversion debate is really hotting up.

 

There seems to be lots of information on how to convert a Bachmann A2 or Hornby A3 into various Thompson Pacific's but no information on just how much the whole project costs including the donor locomotive and all the other parts required.

 

I say this because I have recently commissioned PDK to build me one of their A2/2 locomotives number 60506 Wolf of Badenoch, the complete job is just under £500.00 that will be fully completed, painted and weathered to my requirements but it will not be ready for some time due to their current work load.

 

For future reference it would be nice to know just how much the recent conversions are to see if there is any significant saving, is this a question I can ask openly or is it a subject that should be discussed privately with the person carrying out the conversion so I hope I do not offend anyone.

 

I know from this and other threads that Tim carries out these conversions, and excellent they are as well.

 

Also are there any other model locomotive builders that also carry out this type of work?

 

Regards

 

David

Edited November 27, 2012 by landscapes

[great northern]

LOL at the ballast bin not bedded in.

 

I think your effort not bad at all, there is more right with it than wrong and what IS wrong is either minor, beyond your control, or in the future.

 

Where SHOULD the water crane be?

 

I've had another look at this, and concluded that to get the same angle as the original shot I would have to stand a foot or two outside the room window. As that involves a rather long drop, I shan't bother. The water crane is where it should be,at the end of the Up platform, but the original photo doesn't go that far, so it can't be seen. It's all about the angle from which it was taken, type of lens and so on. I guess I shouldn't be so self critical about my efforts, as I know very well that given the necessary compromises and compression that have had to be accepted, there is no way that I can create an exact copy. It's quite good fun trying though, so there may be more.

[Mallard60022]

I think that 'recreating the actual photo' could be a good little space filler for T.W. in BRM on an occasional basis or even as a part of a layout feature to demonstrate how great it is to model an actual location.

Gilbert, who is going to spend the next two years putting together your point-rodding (having noticed some in that V2 pic)?

P @ 36E

[great northern]

Hi Gilbert

 

Just back from a week in the sunny Med, missed all the recent bad weather and more important the daily updates on RMweb as well, so I have a lot of catching up to do.

 

Great photos of the Thompson A2/2 and A2/3 kit and converted RTR locos, Peterborough North just seem's to get better and better.

 

I see the Kit built v RTR conversion debate is really hotting up.

 

There seems to be lots of information on how to convert a Bachmann A2 or Hornby A3 into various Thompson Pacific's but no information on just how much the whole project costs including the donor locomotive and all the other parts required.

 

I say this because I have recently commissioned PDK to build me one of their A2/2 locomotives number 60506 Wolf of Badenoch, the complete job is just under £500.00 that will be fully completed, painted and weathered to my requirements but it will not be ready for some time due to their current work load.

 

For future reference it would be nice to know just how much the recent conversions are to see if there is any significant saving, is this a question I can ask openly or is it a subject that should be discussed privately with the person carrying out the conversion so I hope I do not offend anyone.

 

I know from this and other threads that Tim carries out these conversions, and excellent they are as well.

 

Also are there any other model locomotive builders that also carry out this type of work?

 

Regards

 

David

 

Hi David,

 

I have to say that the price PDK have given you seems very reasonable. I would have expected considerably more. A Tony Wright build, admittedly with a Rathbone paint job, cost fifty per cent more than that ten years ago! Taking into account the cost of the donor loco, which is whatever you can manage to get a Bachmann A2 for, plus about £30 for additional parts, the conversion job will not come out a great deal cheaper. It depends to a degree on the specific loco you want, as apparently small details can take a length of time out of proportion to their size. At the end though, you get a custom made model of a specific loco at a specific date. I don't know of anyone other than Tim who does this sort of work professionally, but then as I'm more than happy with his work I don't need to.

[great northern]

I think that 'recreating the actual photo' could be a good little space filler for T.W. in BRM on an occasional basis or even as a part of a layout feature to demonstrate how great it is to model an actual location.

Gilbert, who is going to spend the next two years putting together your point-rodding (having noticed some in that V2 pic)?

P @ 36E

 

I'm glad you noticed that point rodding Phil. I have been trying quietly to ignore it, as I know very well that if I start it, i shall have to finish, and that would be a long laborious and probably quite expensive job. It is likely therefore that I shall follow the example of succesive governments when confronted with a difficult and expensive report. A high and dusty shelf awaits, methinks. Unless of course, you would like to volunteer...........

[landscapes]

Hi David,

 

I have to say that the price PDK have given you seems very reasonable. I would have expected considerably more. A Tony Wright build, admittedly with a Rathbone paint job, cost fifty per cent more than that ten years ago! Taking into account the cost of the donor loco, which is whatever you can manage to get a Bachmann A2 for, plus about £30 for additional parts, the conversion job will not come out a great deal cheaper. It depends to a degree on the specific loco you want, as apparently small details can take a length of time out of proportion to their size. At the end though, you get a custom made model of a specific loco at a specific date. I don't know of anyone other than Tim who does this sort of work professionally, but then as I'm more than happy with his work I don't need to.

 

Thanks for the relpy Gilbert.

 

I fully agree with you that Tim's work is excellent.

 

Regards

 

David

[mario de prisco]

Good morning

From last '70s I like index the images of italian train magazines "Italmodel Ferrovie" and "iTreni". Quelli che mi conoscono sanno che l'indicizzazione è una mia "fissa" da sempre.

Next links join the pages of this thread with historical images. Di seguito i link alle pagine che presentano foto storiche con indicazione dei soggetti rappresentati:

 

pag.4 station

pag.10 wing signals, 61619

pag.15 sentinel n.8, water columns

pag.19 60539, 60518, 60073

pag.26 69808 (?)

pag.31 60117

pag.33 69276

pag.59 water columns

pag.63 across the bridge

pag.65 (?)

pag.67 60029

pag.69 41062

pag.75 63717 62041(?)

pag.78 60007 (a colori del 1962)

pag.79 Deltic

pag.80 Video

pag.81 Deltic 0022

pag.83 60858 60923

pag.85 69258

pag.89 64265

pag.90 D5906

pag.106 Video 60022

pag.111 60077 "The White Knight"

pag.115 61816

pag.116 61650+65449

pag.117 61816

pag.120 60862

 

I will try to update periodically this list. Proverò a tenere aggiornato questo elenco.

Ciao a tutti

Mario

 

PS: Original post in ferramatori.it forum

Edited November 30, 2012 by mario de prisco

[great northern]

Yesterday saw a visit from AndyRush, and an excellent day it was too.I am most grateful to him for taking the trouble to tell me in a most gentle and constructive way what is wrong with the formation of my goods trains. First of all, there aren't enough of them. Well, he would say that, wouldn't he? Sadly though I have unwitttingly perpetrated a number of howlers. The trouble is that although I took a lot of interest in locomotives when I was young , and still do, and took far more interest in passsenger stock when better information became available, humble, but vital, goods stock tends to be considered a bit mundane, and doesn't get the same level of research. I suspect that I'm not the only person who is guilty of this.

 

Anyway, Andy's knowledge as a former railway man soon showed me the error of my ways. I shall now be giving this a lot more thought, and putting it right, as there is no point at all in trying to get some or most of it right while ignoring the rest. Andy also gave me a very thought provoking bit of information about cassettes for storage, as a result of which the future use of those fiddle yard spurs I presently use for locomotive storage may have to change.

 

Where all this may lead, I'm not quite sure. I already had two things to think about, and a third may well result in overload based on recent experience. I shall now go and pursue golf balls for a while, and reflect further in due course. "Shot of the day" will I hope occur, but not on here today I'm afraid. For those who may be suffering withdrawal symptoms, tomorrow should be a different matter.

[Markeg]

Hi Gilbert,

 

Hope you hit a hole ine one. That may spark the inspiration.

 

I am sitting at my desk on the other side of the world trying to sort a short or some other problem with my Hornby BR A4 Wild Swan, inspired by your dilemmas about not have enough goods wagons/trains. I have just found myself the book Goods Traffic on the LNER at the most reasonable price from the UK, so will have some material to hand soon I hope so I can get a better idea. Good to have a local man with that knowledge.

 

The A4 just doesn't want to go.

 

Mark in OZ

[LNER4479]

Yesterday saw a visit from AndyRush, and an excellent day it was too.I am most grateful to him for taking the trouble to tell me in a most gentle and constructive way what is wrong with the formation of my goods trains. First of all, there aren't enough of them. Well, he would say that, wouldn't he? Sadly though I have unwitttingly perpetrated a number of howlers. The trouble is that although I took a lot of interest in locomotives when I was young , and still do, and took far more interest in passsenger stock when better information became available, humble, but vital, goods stock tends to be considered a bit mundane, and doesn't get the same level of research. I suspect that I'm not the only person who is guilty of this.

 

Hurrah for the humble goods train! Afterall, they were what the railway network was built for.

 

I think many can empathise with your comments Gilbert. One of my LNER research books provides the following simple statistic: two-thirds of the LNER's revenue was from goods traffic receipts. In another instance, I was researching a 1950's working timetable and found out that, for every one passenger train, three goods trains ran!

 

Two 'perception' problems I think. First of all, the lineside cameraman of old, perhaps with one eye one cost, would save his camera frame sighting for the one prestigious express passenger train of the day and hence many books give an unbalanced view of what it was like (let's face it, a goods train just isn't as 'sexy' as an express passenger train!). Secondly, that any observations based on today's railway give the completely opposite impression, with an hourly passenger service (virutally unheard of apart from intense inner city lines) running over tracks shorn of all remaining goods infrastructure. Many of today's secondary and rural lines see no regular freight trains at all.

 

I suspect the good Mr Wealleans will be commenting in due course as he is a wealth of information on goods wagons and has indeed already been of considerable assistance with the research into this aspect of my project during the relatively short length of time I have been on RMWeb.

[andyrush]

Aha, my propaganda is bearing fruit!

 

The general problem is not the lack of information about goods wagons (although, no doubt, that applies to some rolling stock), but the lack of information/knowledge about how wagons were used and why. A lot of modellers don't seem to care, after all a wagon is a wagon is a wagon, but perusal of photographs - even allowing for the scarcity of same mentioned by LNER4479 above, can give a lot of clues, as can common sense! One superb ECML layout, which shall remain nameless, used to feature a couple of empty bogie bolsters on a southbound train - where WOULD they be going?

 

So, as Gilbert has mentioned numerous times in this thread that he wanted to create an everyday scene, I thought I would try and assist him. Although I only started on BR in 1961, 'traditional' goods trains lasted a few years after that, even with diesel power, and I was always much more interested in goods trains than passenger trains. For four years or so in Cambridge Control Office, I had access to the station roof via the fire escape and when things were quiet it was a splendid vantage point for the viewing the almost constant activity on the up and down goods lines, and I also spent a fair amount of off-duty time at Whitemoor Yard (very sad, I know, but at the time I didn't have much money for other temptations......).

 

The other thing, alluded to above, is to try and achieve a prototypical 'mundanity' to the trains on Peterborough North - if I have anything to do with it, there will be no wagons carrying ships propellors or large industrial boilers disfiguring Gilbert's railway, but there is the problem that most of his fiddle yard is full of shiny passenger trains (and he hasn't got enough room for all of those!).

 

At the moment, I am sending my observations to Gilbert privately, but if he wants to post them and others want to see them, they will no doubt appear on here.

 

Andy

[coachmann]

Some freight consists in steam days beggared belief. One might assume from modelling articles that as many fitted wagons as possible would be used as a brake head behind the tender, but persusal of cine-to-video shows real trains with an unfitted head and fitted wagons from halfway to the goods brake. It was thus an unfitted train with all the care needed to work it. There may have been good reason of course, such as a short transfer trip for the leading unfitted wagons while the fitted lot were going a longer distance.

[JeffP]

I suspect that freight trains were the staple diet of most spotters, unless you lived at Crewe, Doncaster, Derby, etc etc.

 

Here, in Scunny, we would sit on the embankment fence, or the embankment itself on dry days, and watch an endless procession of freight: iron ore, coal, and finished products from the works, in the charge of O4's, O2's, K3's, B1's and 9F's with a liberal sprinkling of WD Austerities thrown in.

In tha later years, it was mostly 9F's and "dubbies".

 

The arrival of a steam hauled passenger was exciting, as were the rare and prized visits of "foreign" engines like Black 5's and Jubilees on excursions heading towards Cleethorpes.

 

Unfortunately, even though we were only 23 miles by rail from "The Plant", some dodgy trackwork between there and us meant that, in spite of a large MPD at Frodingham that could have serviced and turned locos, we never saw any "running-in" turns from the Plant.

There are no records of any ex LNER pacifics ever having visited until preservation.

 

And to think we used to boo Austerities? What I'd give to see one storming the GunHouse bank with a loaded coal train now, banked by an old O4.......

Edited December 1, 2012 by JeffP

[coachmann]

And to think we used to boo Austerities?

They were all too common. But they made interesting banging noises that reverberated back of buildings and I became fond of the familiar clanking Austerity. I was on the second floor of a flat overlooking the railway when I moved to Wales and was awakened one morning at around 7am by one shunting in Abergele & Pensarn goods yard. Magic...

[Brian D]

My steam era train spotting days were mainly spent watching Q6 and J27 hauled (unfitted) coal trains in Co Durham. There is an unforgettable sound when such trains are being shunted as each wagon buffers up to its neighbour, the clang-clang-clang moving along the length of the train as the coal hoppers were pushed into the colierysiding. Very difficult to recreate in model form IMHO.

Regards,

Brian.

[great northern]

No hole in one yesterday thank goodness. Buying drinks for everyone in the clubhouse doesn't come cheap. Nice day though, as is today, but as always bright sunshine does not help with photography. Today's shots are not as good as I would like, but as even TW describes photography in my room in these conditions as "impossible", I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised.

 

 

You've seen D16's at Platform 6 before, but it does make a nice shot, and it isn't as difficult as some to photoshop. This one has taken all of five minutes to get here with the shuttle service from East station. You may shortly even see B17's on this duty. Any excuse to justify some more.

 

 

Up the other end now, to see a local B1 waiting to take the 6.15pm all stations to Grantham, while a J6 runs by with a trip working from the South yard to New England. The Up main was signalled for bi-directional working, very complex considering the otherwise stone age arrangements on the signalling front. This one's even better as regards photoshopping. None needed - the duck egg blue walls paid off for once, and we are looking at a bookcase free zone.

 

 

The camera is swung round to capture the J6 heading on to complete its short journey.

 

 

While the B1 awaits the right away. The sunlight has been eating bits of this one, even without photoshopping.

[coachmann]

Lovely shots as usual Gilbert. The colour of your ballast interests me. Woodland Scenics fine brown by any chance?

[great northern]

I cannot claim any knowledge of the prototype, but the most striking thing on seeing your photos is the different distance between running plate and cylinder. Each loco has a different dimension as far as I can see.

 

Sorry for the very belated reply, Jonathan - I forgot all about it. TW's comment is that 505 and 506 are far closer to being "right" than the Crownline kit, which had more than one questionable feature. Tony made some alterations to the ones he built to try to get it to look more correct, but there is obviously a limit even to what he can do.

[great northern]

Lovely shots as usual Gilbert. The colour of your ballast interests me. Woodland Scenics fine brown by any chance?

 

At least three different shades Larry, all of which Norman Saunders mixed himself. Unfortunately, because I kept forgetting to close the blinds, the sun has bleached the colour out of some of the ballast at the North end. Norman left me some to touch up areas which might need it, so i must get round to it.

[tetleys]

Privaledged as I am of seeing Peterborough North in the flesh so to speak I can defend Gilbert a little (but not too much!) Apart from all those lovely shiney named trains he does have an eclectic mix of less glamorous coaching stock and I like to watch the arrival of a local hauled by some equally less glamorous loco. However, he is guilty as charged of perhaps favouring big green engines with some funny names pulling 7 or 8 coaches, I cannot imagine why, I'm sure when Gilbert discovers the secret of levitation or otherwise manages to find storage for another dozen trains there will be some interesting goods consists. With Gilbert's agreement I for one would appreciate Andyrush's input on goods traffic.