DCC definitions... an update required?

[jpendle]

5 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

DCC READY

Not fitted with a decoder but any can be used for all functions to work correctly. 

 

DCC FUNCTIONAL

Not fitted with a decoder and requires a decoder to be mapped for all functions to work correctly

I think these are both covered under the DCC ready heading.

 

Firstly there's no way you'll get a manufacturer to limit the number of functions on a loco just to suit all DCC decoders, just look at Revolution ploughing ahead with the new ESU E24 standard decoders on their CL59 and CL66 locos.

 

Secondly, users will nearly always want to map functions to suit themselves rather than go with what's plug and play. e.g Dapol N Gauge locos with Next18 sockets have the front lights connected to Function outputs 0 and the rear lights connected to Function outputs 1 & 2, some will want to map two Functions, one for front and one for rear lights, and some may want it to work like their 6 pin fitted models and map just one function to control all the lights, etc.

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

But not my first choice as their speed linearity is not as good as Lenz, which is important for me.

And as an aside I've accidentally got some straight speed curves on some of my Zimo equipped locos which I know is what @melmerby is after.

But that's for another topic.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[melmerby]

31 minutes ago, jpendle said:

And as an aside I've accidentally got some straight speed curves on some of my Zimo equipped locos which I know is what @melmerby is after.

But that's for another topic.

Not easy though, I managed to get a pretty straight line with a lot of faffing around withthe 28 point speed curve.

With a Lenz  I can get it with the three point speed settings, which I have never got near with a Zimo

[BroadLeaves]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

If the decoder is a e.g. Next 18 or Plux 22 the terminals for stay alive should be on the decoder as it is part of the specification

I seem to recall some folk having a lot of trouble getting the stay-alive to work on their Manor ( Next 18 socket ) with a Zimo decoder. Can't remember all the details - something to do with the PCB being designed specifically for the ESU LokSound and using three wires, not two?

As I said above, I have no problem with a manufacturer going off-piste, specification-wise, and implementing non-standard or extra features, possibly requiring their own custom-programmed decoder to be fitted, provided they tell people what will and won't work with a "standards-compliant" decoder. I don't want to find out something doesn't work after I've made the purchase.
 

 

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

If you are paying £200+ for a loco why skimp on a suitable decoder?

Maybe because you're spending £200+ on the loco. Not everyone has unlimited funds.

 

5 hours ago, McC said:

decoders are ‘simple’ enough components with little real difference between them

It’s feasible to ‘build in’ a decoder to the pcb or leave it pluggable for under £10 these days.

So why are the ones that Accurascale sell priced at £29.50, £100 and £110, if there's little real difference between yours and the £10 ones? Even for the non-sound £29.50 one, is that no better than the one you can build in for £10?

[McC]

10 minutes ago, BroadLeaves said:

I seem to recall some folk having a lot of trouble getting the stay-alive to work on their Manor ( Next 18 socket ) with a Zimo decoder. Can't remember all the details - something to do with the PCB being designed specifically for the ESU LokSound and using three wires, not two?

As I said above, I have no problem with a manufacturer going off-piste, specification-wise, and implementing non-standard or extra features, possibly requiring their own custom-programmed decoder to be fitted, provided they tell people what will and won't work with a "standards-compliant" decoder. I don't want to find out something doesn't work after I've made the purchase.
 

 

Maybe because you're spending £200+ on the loco. Not everyone has unlimited funds.

 

So why are the ones that Accurascale sell priced at £29.50, £100 and £110, if there's little real difference between yours and the £10 ones? Even for the non-sound £29.50 one, is that no better than the one you can build in for £10?

 

See non OEM licensing and costs. When you buy a stand alone decoder you pay for a lot more than just components. The discussion , with respect to the OP, is about definition of DCC ready, fitted, etc not specific manufacturer issues. My question was if it made sense to the customer to include a decoder as standard in all locos for a small additional cost (also offset by the fact you don’t need to prepare, package and post that decoder separately. 

[Pendle Forest]

My original thoughts came about after hearing the discussion about people either new or coming back to the hobby ... like myself after 30yrs away. 

 

I took DCC Ready to be plug and play a decoder.  I was rather miffed to find out it didn't mean this at all.  I would absolutely have just preferred to have a decoder fitted, by the manufacturer, that made everything work as advertised.  I still can't get my 144 saloon lights to work, nor the cab lights in a Heljan 45, despite fitting the 'right' decoders.

 

Despite all the people saying decoders can be re-mapped, re-programmed etc etc... for someone new or returning this 'faffing about' is a barrier and makes the initial purchase somewhat disappointing. 

 

I might point out I've a degree in communications electronics and can programme hubs and nodes... so I find this standard that isn't a standard at all baffling... and the need to make changes at all (if u just want it to work out of the box) a completely unnecessary and unwelcome complication.

Edited February 18 by Pendle Forest
Added info :)

[Pendle Forest]

7 hours ago, McC said:

If anything it makes a case for only shipping models DCC fitted and DCC Sound fitted? Both options support DC running and both provide full functionality?

I have two 31s on order and would be delighted if they came with decoders in and everything working :)

[GrumpyPenguin]

Personally, I do not want the manufactures choice of decoder, my go-to is the Lenz Silver. In my opinion one of the best. I find it much easier to set up than any of the others.

 

Sound is a little different, I accept what I'm given. However, I only have a few sound locomotives and they will never number more than a few of my fleet.

[Pendle Forest]

3 minutes ago, chiefpenguin said:

Personally, I do not want the manufactures choice of decoder, my go-to is the Lenz Silver. In my opinion one of the best. I find it much easier to set up than any of the others.

 

Sound is a little different, I accept what I'm given. However, I only have a few sound locomotives and they will never number more than a few of my fleet.

I think this is where I'm coming from with either DCC Ready or Functional.  If something is marked Ready ... in my mind... you should be able to plug in your decoder choice and the standard means that is works and all functions are there.  If the loco is marked 'Functional' then you can still plug in your own choice but you may find that certain functions are locked out or you need a programmer to do all the 'faffing about'. I'm not suggesting stopping people having a choice.  Just that the information presented to the customer is accurate ... so we can make empowered choices. 

[AY Mod]

26 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

I took DCC Ready to be plug and play a decoder.  I was rather miffed to find out it didn't mean this at all. 

 

Yes, it means you can plug a decoder in.

 

Oven-ready meals? Are they ready to eat?

 

Race-ready car? Does it include a driver?

[Pendle Forest]

4 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Yes, it means you can plug a decoder in.

 

Oven-ready meals? Are they ready to eat?

 

Race-ready car? Does it include a driver?

It doesn't tell you what functions are or aren't available though.  So when you see a full list of functions is it safe yo assume they will all work or just some of them?   I'm not thinking about sound btw, that's different.  

 

Oven ready... ready to be placed in the oven and will then fully function as a meal (unless you burn it).

 

Race ready... take the car to the trac, seat a racing driver in it, it will fully function as a racing car... however place a non-racing driver in it, it won't.  How do u know that from 'racing ready?

[AY Mod]

7 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

So when you see a full list of functions is it safe yo assume they will all work or just some of them? 

 

How far do you want to go? For a model manufacturer to tell you what third-party controllers will or will not be able to control whatever functions on third-party decoders? That's the responsibility of the customer to research too. The current definitions are understood sufficiently well and consistently used across all manufacturers so they don't need redefining because you have misunderstood; you're extrapolating your opinion onto the rest of the hobby.

[Dungrange]

30 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

I think this is where I'm coming from with either DCC Ready or Functional.  If something is marked Ready ... in my mind... you should be able to plug in your decoder choice and the standard means that is works and all functions are there.  If the loco is marked 'Functional' then you can still plug in your own choice but you may find that certain functions are locked out or you need a programmer to do all the 'faffing about'.

 

So for you, just read the term 'DCC Ready' as what you want to call 'DCC Functional'.  No manufacturer is going to market something as your definition of 'Ready' because they have no control over the command station or the decoder that you choose.   Their product works as advertised with their choice of decoder (the As Fitted option) and the DCC Ready version (with a blanking plate instead of a decoder) works on DC analogue.  The hassle free option that you're looking for would be to buy the DCC Fitted option. 

 

The DCC Ready markings really just mean that there is a decoder socket in the locomotive, so you don't need to worry about hardwiring a decoder (which was the only option when DCC started).  That is, the path between the pickups and the motor have been cut and pass through a socket, so the more difficult part of the decoder install is done for you.

[Pendle Forest]

7 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

So for you, just read the term 'DCC Ready' as what you want to call 'DCC Functional'.  No manufacturer is going to market something as your definition of 'Ready' because they have no control over the command station or the decoder that you choose.   Their product works as advertised with their choice of decoder (the As Fitted option) and the DCC Ready version (with a blanking plate instead of a decoder) works on DC analogue.  The hassle free option that you're looking for would be to buy the DCC Fitted option. 

 

The DCC Ready markings really just mean that there is a decoder socket in the locomotive, so you don't need to worry about hardwiring a decoder (which was the only option when DCC started).  That is, the path between the pickups and the motor have been cut and pass through a socket, so the more difficult part of the decoder install is done for you.

But when Fitted isn't an option you are left with Sound or Ready.   If you fit a decoder to a Ready model that does not make it Fitted... 

[Pendle Forest]

26 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

How far do you want to go? For a model manufacturer to tell you what third-party controllers will or will not be able to control whatever functions on third-party decoders? That's the responsibility of the customer to research too. The current definitions are understood sufficiently well and consistently used across all manufacturers so they don't need redefining because you have misunderstood; you're extrapolating your opinion onto the rest of the hobby.

Apologies for not being in the sufficiently understood group... as I said returning to the hobby after a period away clearly means I should have done extensive reaearch or just not bothered... which is perhaps something that manufacturers may think to consider.  

[Harlequin]

24 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

But when Fitted isn't an option you are left with Sound or Ready.   If you fit a decoder to a Ready model that does not make it Fitted... 

It does after you've mapped the outputs appropriately, which is of course the first thing you would do.

 

But you're right, that process can be difficult and it would help if manufacturers published the functions of their locos in a standardised format along with the "DCC Ready" moniker.

 

BTW: If you're going to do anything more than driving, setting loco addresses and setting accel/deceleration values then using something like JMRI is highly recommended. Otherwise, setting CVs by number is like performing keyhole surgery in the dark.

 

Edited February 18 by Harlequin

[BroadLeaves]

2 hours ago, McC said:

My question was if it made sense to the customer to include a decoder as standard in all locos for a small additional cost (also offset by the fact you don’t need to prepare, package and post that decoder separately. 

Well, I'd re-phrase that as "Does it make sense to ask customers to pay for something they may not need?"

I'd see at least five types of customer:

A: Uses DC only
B: DCC user, but happy with the £10 built-in thing
C: Has an existing decoder they are going to re-purpose in their new locomotive

D: Wants the full DCC-based son et lumière experience using a factory-fitted decoder
E: Has their own preferred brand of decoder they want to purchase and install

Why would those who are A, C, or E want to pay the extra for something they're never going to use?

Going back to the opening point, for me, it doesn't need lots of different DCC-<something> labels (and it doesn't need built-in decoders either). The labelling and models stay just as they are.

For the very simple models (something like a Hornby Terrier - no built-in speaker, no lights), the manufacturer could say that it needs a decoder that complies with NEM standard <whatever it is> so the prospective purchasers know what they're getting into. That's pretty much what the current DCC-Ready labelling scheme does, but it only really works for the simple models.

For the "advanced" models, the manufacturer tests the model with their all-singing, all-dancing fancy specially -programmed-for-that-model decoder (if they have one) and also test it with a few comparable decoders from other manufacturers. They then publish which features of the model work with the other decoders. If no testing is done with any other decoder (or indeed any decoder at all!), that's fine too. They simply say that as part of the model's description, so that, again, the prospective purchasers know what they're getting into.

All of that is information that the manufacturer will already have, but haven't (usually) made public.  It's a publishing & web site update exercise, nothing more.

I'm not singling out Accurascale here. This would apply just as much to Kernow with their new steam rail motor and its interior and exterior lighting, Hornby's front and rear lamps on their Turbomotive, the firebox flicker on Rapido's 15xx and so on.

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, Vecchio said:

one manufacturer uses also logic functions

Just one?🙂

[Pendle Forest]

23 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

It does after you've mapped the outputs appropriately, which is of course the first thing you would do.

 

But you're right, that process can be difficult and it would help if manufacturers published the functions of their locos in a standardised format along with the "DCC Ready" moniker.

 

BTW: If you're going to do anything more than driving, setting loco addresses and setting accel/deceleration values then using something like JMRI is highly recommended. Otherwise, setting CVs by number is like performing keyhole surgery in the dark.

 

I'd absolutely be happy with this if it was made clear what the manufacturer recommended as a decoder and if their were any caveats, so that at the point of purchase the customer can 'get it right'.

 

'We recommend fitting decoder X and this will need to be purchased pre-formatted or you will need file Y and the facilities to programme the decoder of your choice'.  

 

Now, as a customer, I know I can purchase the recommended decoder with the functions 'unlocked', or I can go it alone and the information is available to me.  

 

I'd have definitely thought there was a market for On-Board/Fitted (not sound).

[melmerby]

Maybe more people should be using Decoder Pro (JMRI)?

It works on Windows, Mac & Linux and is the easy way to map decoders. It's all there in graphical form. (provided you don't buy some unheard of make of decoder)

I use it for all my decoder installations. You can map the functions such as: dim the lights, have fancy light functions such as firebox flicker or those American modes,

 

Some Manufacturers don't help with only part information.

e.g. Kernow say the interior lights on the steam railmotor are controlled by Function 6.

Only on their pre-programmed decoder though (not mentioned)

I have them on F1 using a Lenz decoder, that's without re-mapping.

 

 

[melmerby]

20 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

as a customer, I know I can purchase the recommended decoder with the functions 'unlocked', or I can go it alone and the information is available to me.  

What do you mean by unlocked?

.That's suggesting some magic code is need to change things. There isn't anything, all CVs are there to be changed if needed.

2 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

I might point out I've a degree in communications electronics and can programme hubs and nodes... so I find this standard that isn't a standard at all baffling... and the need to make changes at all (if u just want it to work out of the box) a completely unnecessary and unwelcome complication.

You quite clearly have not read up on DCC before plunging in.

There is a standard for DCC and it's decoders (NMRA), there are also a lot of options available to individual manufacturers.

All decoders have a list of CVs that are mandatory, some that are recommended, many that are optional and some that manufacturers can use for their own specific "extras"

(CV = Configuration Variable)

Have a look at this: https://dccwiki.com/Configuration_Variable

 

If you buy a loco DCC fitted, it should work "out of the box" Most manufacturers sell fitted and unfitted locos

If you buy DCC ready i.e. unfitted, you are on your own and there is no way there can ever be a standard pre programmed decoder available off the shelf, this would be prohibively expensive.

Learning to program decoders is part of the learning curve with DCC.

 

BTW sound is a bit different as it is by it's nature tailored to each particular loco but you pay a lot more anyway.

Edited February 18 by melmerby

[Pendle Forest]

Perhaps I'd be wiser investing in a hobby that was more accessible ... and stick to reading, photographing and drawing the railways instead.  

[Dungrange]

18 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

But when Fitted isn't an option you are left with Sound or Ready.   If you fit a decoder to a Ready model that does not make it Fitted... 

 

I suppose that depends on what decoder you fit.  Being pedantic, if you fit a decoder in the locomotive, it is fitted, but not necessarily optimised for that particular model.

 

If we take Accurascale as an example, you are correct, all of their models are marketed as either DCC Ready or DCC Sound.  However, they also sell ESU Lokpilot decoders that have been set up for the locomotives that they manufacture and sell.

 

https://www.accurascale.com/search?q=Lokpilot

 

Therefore, if you buy a DCC Ready model and the corresponding Lokpilot decoder, then I'd argue if you remove the blanking plate and fit the decoder in the socket, you effectively have a DCC Fitted option.  That's the closest you're going to get to 'plug and play', which means that the Accurascale DCC Ready locomotives presumably meet your requirement for being labelled DCC Ready.

 

However, if you were to buy the same ESU Lokpilot decoder elsewhere and fit it in an Accurascale locomotive, it will need to be programmed, by changing some of the CVs from the decoder manufacturers defaults.  Does that mean that the same DCC Ready locomotive now has to be marked as DCC Functional?

 

If you wanted to buy the same Accurascale DCC Ready locomotive and fit it with a Lenz decoder, who should be providing you with the information that you require to ensure that you get the best out of that combination?  Should it be Accurascale or Lenz?  Ultimately, the answer is that it's the user through a bit of trial and error with the user manuals in front of them.   There are a huge number of different models on the market and a large number of different makes and models of decoder, so the number of possible combinations means that there will always be a need to undertake some adjustments unless you're buying the Fitted option.

[Pendle Forest]

The answer seems to be that manufacturers should make models available with the decoder fitted that they recommend with the correct programming.  If there are any issues (the F2 on gaugemaster for instance which is well known about, a note could be put on the function list of how to change this just using the handset)? 

 

I don't doubt that some folks love the nitty-gritty of the CVs and the programming etc.  The huge selling point of DCC, originally, was simplification and more functions. You put your two wires to the track, you give your loco an address, and away you go. More simple than DC wiring wise and with more basic functions available ... win win. My initial point was that the way things are now marketed hasn't kept up with the way that DCC has become more and more complex... the information to the customer is (in many cases) poor. 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

The answer seems to be that manufacturers should make models available with the decoder fitted that they recommend with the correct programming

Most manufacturers do.

Accurascale (maybe a few others) don't, although Accurascale will sell you a pre programmed decoder.

 

The beauty of DCC is that you can change how a loco is configured to your own criteria.

Many prefitted decoders and all those bought separately come with the loco address set to 3.

That has to be changed to whatever you want for your method of identification

 

I find it difficult to comprehend that someone that has a degeee finds the concept of self programming of decoders so hard..

[Dungrange]

2 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

If there are any issues (the F2 on Gaugemaster for instance which is well known about, a note could be put on the function list of how to change this just using the handset)? 

 

But is that not something that should be covered in Gaugemaster's User Manual?  It would seem very strange to expect say Accurascale, advising how to reprogramme an ESU decoder to overcome an issue with the Gaugemaster command station.