DCC definitions... an update required?

[Pendle Forest]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Most manufacturers do.

Accurascale (maybe a few others) don't, although Accurascale will sell you a pre programmed decoder.

 

The beauty of DCC is that you can change how a loco is configured to your own criteria.

Many prefitted decoders and all those bought separately come with the loco address set to 3.

That has to be changed to whatever you want for your method of identification

 

I find it difficult to comprehend that someone that has a degeee finds the concept of self programming of decoders so

With respect you're missing the point.  I'm talking about how the way the marketing and definitions have not kept up.  Even if the thread got a little side-tracked

 

I've no issue programming ... I just don't see how that is reflected in the material that advertises the products.  You may see things differently.  We each have our own point of view.

[Pendle Forest]

3 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

But is that not something that should be covered in Gaugemaster's User Manual?  It would seem very strange to expect say Accurascale, advising how to reprogramme an ESU decoder to overcome an issue with the Gaugemaster command station.

Yep maybe it should indeed be, then when it's purchased there is something that at least alerts you to why, for instance, the tail lights won't stay on on your newly purchased model.

[Dungrange]

2 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

My initial point was that the way things are now marketed hasn't kept up with the way that DCC has become more and more complex...

I kind of get where you're coming from but would the public consider DCC Functional better or worst than DCC Ready?

 

DCC Ready = A socket has been installed (so the hardware install is easy) but there are few if any functions

DCC Functional = A socket has been installed (so the hardware install is easy) and it also has a lot of advanced functions that my be accessible depending on your choice of decoder and you have to set these up using the documentation that comes with your choice of decoder.

 

DCC Functional sounds like the better specification (although your inference is that it's not).  However, I could argue that's already highlighted in the advertising insofar as the manufacturer will highlight that their model has individually switchable lighting combinations.

[Pendle Forest]

If you buy a Bachmann 37 and you buy the plux22 decoder they recommend, you can plug it in and everything they say works, will work. 

 

If you buy the recent Cavalex 56 and buy the decoder they recommend and plug it in... not everything works.  It will only do so if you upload to it their file ... it doesn't say this in the instruction book or in the marketing material... so how would you know. 

 

Both models are labelled as Ready.  Yet one is take the decoder and plug and play, while the other is format then plug and plug. 

 

'Ready' either means one thing or it means multiple things and becomes meaningless.

[Oldddudders]

The NMRA standards against which manufacturers are required to assure conformity cover basic operational performance, and without those DCC would never have taken off beyond the geek community. Having been set 30-ish years ago, before plug-and-socket installations were widely available, they do not pretend to cover many later developments, including sound and other advanced functions now found in more expensive and sophisticated market offerings. We should be grateful for the degree of certainty that we have, in that any DCC decoder will provide basic operations with any compliant command station. Go beyond those and it is up to the loco manufacturer to specify what his model can do and how to make it happen. Some do specify a decoder manufacturer whose product will complement their installation. 

 

Incidentally F2 on a Gaugemaster throttle does exactly what its US designer intended, and US purchasers expect - it sounds the whistle. 

[Dungrange]

13 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

'Ready' either means one thing or it means multiple things and becomes meaningless.

 

Ready means that there is DCC socket in the model, nothing more.

[Pendle Forest]

20 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

Ready means that there is DCC socket in the model, nothing more.

Then, I'd say,  there needs to be more clarity. When you're presented with two choices 'Ready' or 'Sound', then surely the model manufacturer should state if there is a requirement for the decoder to be formatted in the way they would recommend. Hence my differing 'indicators'

[Nigelcliffe]

43 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

Quote

But is that not something that should be covered in Gaugemaster's User Manual?  It would seem very strange to expect say Accurascale, advising how to reprogramme an ESU decoder to overcome an issue with the Gaugemaster command station.

Yep maybe it should indeed be, then when it's purchased there is something that at least alerts you to why, for instance, the tail lights won't stay on on your newly purchased model.

 

Which manual or which maker would be handing out this advice ? 

Gaugemaster - advise you about an arbitrary decoder in an arbitrary model ? 

Loco maker - advise you about an arbitrary decoder controlled by an arbitrary DCC system ?

Decoder maker - advise you about control with an arbitrary DCC system, when decoder has been configured (or partially configured) for an arbitrary model ? 

The various retailers where stuff was bought, probably not one retailer, and highly unlikely to be all done in a single purchase ?

 

For any of the above, there are a few hundred DCC systems on sale, and goodness knows how many decoders (JMRI lists about 4,000 and their list is far from complete), and I've no idea how many different model loco makers. 

 

 

Yes,  the F2 issue is sufficiently widespread that possibly loco makers offering "decoder fitted" ought to either avoid the F2 key, or make sure its used for things which are "momentary" in their use (typical US system design key behaviour).    But not sure who else can advise beyond that detail.   

 

 

There is a case for model manufacturers being clearer about how their locos are wired to various plugs/sockets fitted inside locos.  That's probably supplementary information beyond "DCC Ready, socket-X".    That would make the fitting of decoder of choice a little simpler to understand.   

 

 

- Nigel

 

[Pendle Forest]

Your last paragraph is my point entirely :)

[Nigelcliffe]

39 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

Your last paragraph is my point entirely :)

 

Which I'll reproduce it below

 

47 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

There is a case for model manufacturers being clearer about how their locos are wired to various plugs/sockets fitted inside locos.  That's probably supplementary information beyond "DCC Ready, socket-X".    That would make the fitting of decoder of choice a little simpler to understand.   

 

 

That's a long way from a set of instructions around how to configure a decoder.   Its just a list of what's connected to what pin. 

 

An example of what I mean would be:  

DCC socket = Plux22

Wiring:   
     speakers fitted (or not fitted)

     FoF -  white headlight cab1

     FoR -  white headlight cab2

     Aux1 - red taillight cab1

    Aux2 - red taillight cab2

    Aux3 -  cab light cab1

    Aux4 -  cab light cab2

    Aux5 -  nighttime headlight cab1

    Aux6 - nighttime headlight cab2

    Aux 7 -  fan motor

    stay-alive fitted (or not fitted).   If a three-wire stay-alive, the which pin is the "control".   

 

And, if a 21pin decoder, clarity over which of the two different 21pin wiring standards are used (Marklin or NMRA) which changes which outputs are logic level or normal. 

 

It can get a little more complex if a maker has "suppression" features in a decoder,  eg. some of Farish' recent Next18 decoders have: 

   FoF - white lights at cab1,  red at cab2

   FoR - white lights at cab2, red at cab1

   Aux1 - disconnect cab 2

   Aux2 - disconnect cab 1

Which means using the Aux1 or Aux2 results in some lights going out if they are turned on.   And controlling them all independently is difficult (some combinations impossible).  

 

 

And that's it.   You're on your own to work out whether a given decoder has enough capabilities, and how to setup the CV's in the chosen decoder.     

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

 

 

[NBL]

I love DCC.  I buy a loco, fit whatever chip I can get first, programme the number and play with the loco.

 

Half the time I forget to turn the lights on, but I have lots of fun operating.

[Oldddudders]

48 minutes ago, NBL said:

I love DCC.  I buy a loco, fit whatever chip I can get first, programme the number and play with the loco.

 

Half the time I forget to turn the lights on, but I have lots of fun operating.

The whole point about DCC. It can be wonderfully sophisticated with lighting and sound effects, or it can simply enable multiple locos on the layout to enjoy individual control and not much more. Our choice. 

[jpendle]

7 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

Then, I'd say,  there needs to be more clarity. When you're presented with two choices 'Ready' or 'Sound', then surely the model manufacturer should state if there is a requirement for the decoder to be formatted in the way they would recommend. Hence my differing 'indicators'

DCC Ready means that it's easy to fit a DCC decoder of your choice, it's then up to you to make it work.

DCC Fitted would mean that there is a decoder fitted which operates all the functions as the manufacturer intended, but then you have to settle for the manufacturer's choice of decoder.

 

By far the most plug and playable decoders are the 6 pin decoders that were commonly used in N Gauge models. Plug it in and the loco is ready to run with both head and tail lights controlled by F0.

But that means you have locos running around hauling trains with their tail lights on, which is not prototypical.

So N Gauge has moved to Next18 which allows independent control of the lights, but then Dapol and Farish decide to do things differently.

Dapol wire the lights at the front of the loco to FO0 and the lights at the back to FO1&2, so using F0,F1,&F2 as user can control the lights straight out of the box, unless they are using a US designed DCC system which has no flexibility as to whether F2 is latching or not. So you get people complaining that the lights don't work when they press F0 and/or that F2 doesn't latch on their system.

Farish wire the lights so that F0 turns on all the lights, just like on a 6 pin decoder, then they use a transistor as a switch so that when either Aux1 or Aux2 are ON it turns OFF the lights at one end or the other.

 

I can fit any Next18 decoder I like to either of them but that same decoder will have to be set up differently depending on which manufacturer made that loco.

 

The point is that you are viewing the DCC standard as if it had been written in the past 5 years, whereas it's a good 35 years old. As a result VERY FEW of the features that a modern DCC loco or decoder may support are actually detailed in the standards.

 

The classic example is Railcom which is supported by virtually all European manufacturers, but has NOT been adopted by many of the US DCC system manufacturers.

 

So, I'm afraid that you're looking for standards that don't exist, and as a result the freedom to put any decoder in any loco comes at the cost of having to do some CV programming IF you want to do more than just drive your locos backwards and forwards.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[melmerby]

8 minutes ago, jpendle said:

The point is that you are viewing the DCC standard as if it had been written in the past 5 years, whereas it's a good 35 years old. As a result VERY FEW of the features that a modern DCC loco or decoder may support are actually detailed in the standards.

 

The classic example is Railcom which is supported by virtually all European manufacturers, but has NOT been adopted by many of the US DCC system manufacturers.

The original system was developed by Lenz and that more or less is what NMRA (a US association) adopted, as Lenz were willing to give away the main specification so that it could become a standard.

Railcom was also a Lenz development as was the ABC braking function.

The US as usual was very parochial and doesn't seem willing to follow the latest developments, which largely come from Europe.

They were late adding the extended functions up to F28, which Lenz introduced from V3.6 of their system and other European companies quickly followed suit

 

The moral is buy European if you want the latest functionality.

 

[WIMorrison]

Something that seems to have been missed is standard commercial practice by the companies making the models.

 

They want you to buy their models with their decoder fitted at their price for the decoder to they maximise their profit for the model. Not unreasonably they have the view that their model is available with a decoder that supports all the available functionality from them and if you choose not to use their decoder in their loco (often needing to be procured with the loco at time of purchase) then you are responsible for any issues that arise if you decide to fit a 3rd party decoder.

 

There is also no reason for them to provide any information of how to map loco A to decoder B or C from some other company.

[YT-1300]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

The original system was developed by Lenz and that more or less is what NMRA (a US association) adopted, as Lenz were willing to give away the main specification so that it could become a standard.

Railcom was also a Lenz development as was the ABC braking function.

The US as usual was very parochial and doesn't seem willing to follow the latest developments, which largely come from Europe.

They were late adding the extended functions up to F28, which Lenz introduced from V3.6 of their system and other European companies quickly followed suit

 

The moral is buy European if you want the latest functionality.

 

I wouldn't say the US aren't willing to follow the latest developments, more that they don't need to.

 

Their prototype railroads don't have the complex lighting configurations that UK railways do, and, in my own experience, modellers in North American don't go for all the superfluous sounds that are found on European products.  They don't seem to feel the need to active a list of functions for 10 minutes before the loco turns a wheel.

 

 

[Pendle Forest]

No issue with a manufacturer wanting u to use a particular decoder. This should be made clear at the point of sale though and that's especially the case if the decoder needs to be formatted in a particular way.  

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, jpendle said:

.........The point is that you are viewing the DCC standard as if it had been written in the past 5 years, whereas it's a good 35 years old. As a result VERY FEW of the features that a modern DCC loco or decoder may support are actually detailed in the standards.

 

The classic example is Railcom which is supported by virtually all European manufacturers, but has NOT been adopted by many of the US DCC system manufacturers........

 

 

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

The original system was developed by Lenz and that more or less is what NMRA (a US association) adopted, as Lenz were willing to give away the main specification so that it could become a standard.

Railcom was also a Lenz development as was the ABC braking function.

The US as usual was very parochial and doesn't seem willing to follow the latest developments, which largely come from Europe...........

 

 

RailCom was adopted into the NMRA standards almost 10 years after widespread adoption of DCC in the USA (it had been in existence in Europe long before NMRA adoption), by which time the US manufacturers and most modellers had become invested and entrenched in the early DCC systems and decoders.

Their DCC manufacturers have been very unwilling to move with the times and adopt new innovations, whether they are part of the NMRA standards or not

 

The only exceptions are TCS, a long established decoder manufacturer who have recently entered the control system marketplace, bringing a fresh approach and adoption of RailCom and LCC...

and SoundTrax, who have introduced their Blunami, direct radio Bluetooth control system (similar to Hornby's HM7000/HM DCC ), developed from more than 10 year old BlueRail Trains technology.

 

 

.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, YT-1300 said:

Their prototype railroads don't have the complex lighting configurations that UK railways do

Really?

Ditch lights, strobe lights, gyro lights, mars lights.🙂

 

Add the cab lights and the number board lights.....

EDIT

Forgot the step lights........

Engine room lights (visible through grills)

 

Edited February 19 by melmerby

[NBL]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

Really?

Ditch lights, strobe lights, gyro lights, mars lights.🙂

 

Add the cab lights and the number board lights.....

EDIT

Forgot the step lights........

Engine room lights (visible through grills)

 

 

In the case of ditch, strobe, mars and gyro lights, these are activated in specific situations such as grade crossing and approaching stations.   These lighting functions have been built into NA market decoders for many years and don't need special mapping. 

 

All the other lighting is either on or off

 

[Oldddudders]

16 minutes ago, NBL said:

All the other lighting is either on or off

Or dimmable in conformity with railroad rules....

[NBL]

27 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Or dimmable in conformity with railroad rules....

Again built in too!!  But how many operators do that?  

[Kaput]

Pretty sure they are only "built in" because the decoder is pre programmed to use those modes. If you really wanted to theres nothing stopping you programming the headlight on a Class 37 to be a mars light for example.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Kaput said:

Pretty sure they are only "built in" because the decoder is pre programmed to use those modes. If you really wanted to theres nothing stopping you programming the headlight on a Class 37 to be a mars light for example.

Exactly

Many decoders for the European market also have these functions, if you wish to use them, also normally mappable to different outputs on the decoder.

If you buy a non decoder fitted loco you have to set them up yourself.