Railway Operating Division - Locomotive Livery

[Bandicoot]

I am sure that I have seen references to this subject before on the Forum, but I have tried every combination of words that I can think of to find any previous threads and have failed dismally.

 

There are a number of r-t-r locos on the market painted a colour which, being charitable, one must refer to as ‘Khaki’. I cannot find any historical evidence for this livery.

As far as I know all locomotives operating in France and Belgium were painted black or dark grey.

 

Does anyone know of a source which gives a definitive answer to this question, please?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

B.

[MartinRS]

A NRM pdf on the subject of railway liveries suggests that the artwork of F Moore (pseudonym of Thomas Rudd) is a reliable source for early liveries. Why? I don't know, unless the NRM has carried out a comparison of surviving livery samples with his paintings. I don't know if he painted any locomotives in ROD livery. The pdf, which suggests other early colour sources can be found here. https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2018-03/resource-pack-liveries.pdf

 

Didcot might be able to answer your question as they did have GWR 4300 Class 5322, preserved in ROD khaki livery as can be seen in this Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 Generic photo by Tony Hisgett. Since May 2012 the loco has been in BR black livery. https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/72/5322-43xx-class

 

The Hattons site (still up on the web) has a sample ROD livery as was used on the 2017 Oxford Rail Dean Goods.

 

A contributor to RmWeb on the page below claims that Bill Aves, in his book on the ROD in WWI, says unlined all black livery (including buffer beams) was used on the Dean Goods by the ROD.

 

Good luck tracking down a definitive answer !

Edited February 24 by MartinRS
Add links

[Bandicoot]

Many thanks Martin, for the link to the NRM. Very interesting. One could easily get lost down a branch line of research.

I’ve looked through all my reference books and magazines and, apart from the point made by Mr. Aves, I cannot find a single word which supports the khaki livery.

I shall wait with baited breath for our fellow members’ thoughts on the matter.

 

B. 

[Caley739]

Is it possible that there was no specific ROD livery for engines called up for continental service? It would make sense to retain existing livery with only addition of ROD lettering, thus saving time and resources.

[bécasse]

I have seen suggestions that narrow gauge locos working along the western front were sometimes repainted locally into an overall colour that blended best with local topography. However I don't think that there were any operational standard gauge railways that came within visual distance of the German front lines (except very briefly during the 1918 spring offensive) so that would not have been an issue. Neither would attack from the air have been a significant threat although it probably happened occasionally.

 

Caley739 makes an interesting point and he is probably right, grey being used for dedicated new-builds and repaints.

[Steamport Southport]

10 hours ago, Bandicoot said:

I am sure that I have seen references to this subject before on the Forum, but I have tried every combination of words that I can think of to find any previous threads and have failed dismally.

 

There are a number of r-t-r locos on the market painted a colour which, being charitable, one must refer to as ‘Khaki’. I cannot find any historical evidence for this livery.

As far as I know all locomotives operating in France and Belgium were painted black or dark grey.

 

Does anyone know of a source which gives a definitive answer to this question, please?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

B.

 

Many of them were black when they left. However people had started to use aeroplanes at one point!

 

 

Jason

[Nick Holliday]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

I have seen suggestions that narrow gauge locos working along the western front were sometimes repainted locally into an overall colour that blended best with local topography. However I don't think that there were any operational standard gauge railways that came within visual distance of the German front lines (except very briefly during the 1918 spring offensive) so that would not have been an issue. Neither would attack from the air have been a significant threat although it probably happened occasionally.

 

Caley739 makes an interesting point and he is probably right, grey being used for dedicated new-builds and repaints.

J N Maskelyne, in his book on London, Brighton & South Coast Railway locomotives, published in 1928, has this to say:

 

Twelve of the LB&SCR "E4" Class were sent to France, during the Great War, for service behind the lines. These engines were Nos. 470, 481,498, 504, 506, 516, 518, 562, 563, 564, 565, and 580.  They left England during November, 1917, and, for some time they worked on the ammunition dump at Audruicq. Early in 1918, however, they were sent right up to fighting line and worked on the gun-spurs in the neighbourhood of Arras.  They were to be seen at almost any time of night or day at such places at St. Pol, Frevent, Doullens, Candas, Canaples, Albert, Gombremetz and Acq. They were painted dull slate grey all over, and had the initials “R.O.D” painted in white letters some two feet in height, on the side tanks while the numbers were painted in similar sized figures on the bunker sides.  A small oval cast iron plate, bearing the legend "L.B. & S.C.R, England," was fixed inside the cab on the back weatherboard. After the Armistice in November, 1918, these engines were put to work on the ordinary local passenger services in the areas mentioned, work which they continued to do until they were gradually released for shipment home to England during the spring and early summer of 1919. They were the only L.B. & S.C.R. engines be sent abroad during hostilities. Nos. 470, 479, 503 and 517 of Class “E4” were fitted with the Automatic Vacuum Brake apparatus in addition to the usual standard Westinghouse Air Brake and could be used in consequence for working other company's stock when necessary.

[bécasse]

The railway gun spurs (used for heavy guns capable of projecting their shells many kilometres) would still not have been within visual sight of the front line except, perhaps, very briefly as the Germans advanced rapidly in the Spring offensive. The guns, with of course their motive power, would have been withdrawn rapidly as they were too valuable to be lost. I believe quite a lot of light (ie narrow) gauge railway equipment was lost to the enemy simply because rapid withdrawal was difficult.

[Bandicoot]

Caley, bécasse , Steamport Southport and  Nick Holliday.

Thanks to all of you for your replies.

Many interesting and erudite points raised, lots to ponder on.

I still maintain that the rtr companies are incorrect in making locomotives in khaki.

Edited February 24 by Bandicoot

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

dull slate grey

 

I'm not suggesting an equivalence, but 'khaki' has numerous shades.

 

[Bandicoot]

So do handbags! Thank you for your very valid point.

I think the manufacturers’ khaki is too light, which would stand out in almost every background.

[bécasse]

Army khaki at the time of the Great War was a light colour, not far off a greenish sand. It was intended to make soldiers inconspicuous in the "hot" countries of the Empire where keeping "order" was the main task of the British Army prior to the Great War.

 

I should add that that gloss "khaki" worn by 5322 pictured above is a definite no-no. Whatever colour was used it would have been matt to avoid reflections of the sun - one mere glimpse of a reflection from the sun would be sufficient to make the loco an instant artillery target, even at a considerable distance.

Edited February 24 by bécasse

[Bandicoot]

Thanks bécasse.

i would wholeheartedly agree with what you say.

To be fair, though, I suppose the museum has painted it gloss to preserve its pristine appearance for as long as possible.

[JimC]

According to the GW liveries bible, Great Western Way, the GWR painted locomotives a shade of khaki between 1916 and 1917. 5322 was built new during this period and sent straight to France. So with 5322 what we are looking at would seem to be a representation of GWR Khaki rather than ROD livery. GWW also states some Dean Goods went overseas in GWR Khaki. 

I rather doubt that under wartime conditions a gloss surface would be much of a problem. I'd anticipate a layer of matt grime at a very early stage.

Edited February 26 by JimC

[Bandicoot]

Many thanks, JimC.

Having little or no interest in the GWR ( I know, I’m a complete outcast for saying that), I haven’t got the books to research it.

However, that sounds pretty definitive, so I shall just have to swallow my aesthetic horror and go with what you have posted.

I’ll have to rob a bank, mind!

[JimC]

I think the main takeaway is that one shouldn't generalise about locomotives with the ROD. We've got black ROD 2-8-0s, Khaki GW 53s, grey LBSCR E3s, and a suggestion on an SREMG page that the SECR P class were also grey. I've also just found a page stating that NNER T1s were painted grey.

Edited February 27 by JimC

[Bandicoot]

56 minutes ago, JimC said:

 

Again, many thanks Jim.

I really do appreciate the effort you’ve put into answering this.

I’ m currently working on a Casualty Clearing Station from the First World War.

As and when time and cash are available, I want to have a go at modelling a pared-down Port Richborough.

I think that will see me out.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, JimC said:

... the SECR P class were also grey. ...

... as were the T class ..... but then grey - of whatever shade - was the SECR standard at that time anyway !

[Ian Rathbone]

ROD 2-8-0s were shipped to France like this -

 

 

Black all over, including buffer beams. 7mm model built by Mike Edge.

 

Ian R

[Miss Prism]

That looks like it could haul a few wagons.

 

[Bandicoot]

Not always good at staying on the metals though.