GCR wagon grey?

[Jammy2305]

Hi all!

 

I'm currently building a kit for a GCR Dia.8 open wagon and, not being a GCR man, I did the cliché and purchased a tin of Phoenix "G.C.R Wagon Grey" (P606) trusting this would be (approximately) the correct shade. However, having done the first coat*, I can't help but feel it looks too dark compared to what I have seen of GCR wagons.

 

 

*a not entirely dry first coat in that photo.

 

I know there's no such thing as "exact shades" for wagon liveries, especially greys, but I'd like to get my one and only GCR wagon looking close to an approximation of what it's meant to represent, so I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions for an appropriate shade for GCR grey?

 

Please and thank you!

 

- James

[corneliuslundie]

I am sure my GCR wagons are also painted with Phoenix GCR wagon grey and they are quite a light grey colour, though I n o longer have the tin so cannot be sure.

 

Not that I am a modeller of the GCR in particular so don't take what I say as authoritative.

I am not sure why it looks so pink as it doesn't in real, life.

Jonathan

[Jammy2305]

1 minute ago, corneliuslundie said:

I am sure my GCR wagons are also painted with Phoenix GCR wagon grey and they are quite a light grey colour, though I n o longer have the tin so cannot be sure.

 

Not that I am a modeller of the GCR in particular so don't take what I say as authoritative.

I am not sure why it looks so pink as it doesn't in real, life.

Jonathan

 

Yours is more like what I was expecting from mine. It's almost like a Midland grey, so I wonder if my tin of LMS grey would suffice 🤔

 

- James 

[Andy Hayter]

As a pre-war GCR modeller the only reference I can find for GCR dark wagon grey is on the Precision paints web site.  

 

As shown above it is much lighter and some sources indeed suggest LMS wagon grey as  good match, so your suggestion is a good one.  

 

With very limited access to Precision paints, I use Tamiya XF-66 light grey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[billbedford]

As a rule of thumb wooden wagon underframes were painted body colour, while steel ones were black. At least pre-grouping. 

[wainwright1]

When you say that the paint is not fully dry, did it eventually dry properly ?

 

From experience with Phoenix paints, they can take quite a while to mix properly, maybe twenty minutes or more.

Perhaps try mixing the paint again and test it on a piece of primed material and see if the colour changes to that on your wagon.

The large tins are the worst, you can end up with arm ache by the time it is fully mixed and dries correctly.

 

All the best

Ray

[Jammy2305]

3 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

When you say that the paint is not fully dry, did it eventually dry properly ?

 

From experience with Phoenix paints, they can take quite a while to mix properly, maybe twenty minutes or more.

Perhaps try mixing the paint again and test it on a piece of primed material and see if the colour changes to that on your wagon.

The large tins are the worst, you can end up with arm ache by the time it is fully mixed and dries correctly.

 

All the best

Ray

 

I took the photo within an hour of painting it, so it was still tacky/not dry. It dried properly overnight but it was still very dark compared to what I'd expect GCR grey to be. 

 

- James

[MarcD]

I had some of their paint that took a month to dry. Sprayed on with an airbrush but I used humbrol thinners and when I enquired I was told that was the reason it took so long to go off.

Marc

[57xx]

On 01/03/2024 at 08:07, MarcD said:

I had some of their paint that took a month to dry. Sprayed on with an airbrush but I used humbrol thinners and when I enquired I was told that was the reason it took so long to go off.

Marc

 

I have some Humbrol thinners, I don't like it at all. It nearly ruined one paint job I did with it. I much prefer to use simple white spirits for thinning Precision (or any enamel) paints. If they aren't touch dry within an hour, something is most definitely up.

[wainwright1]

I suspect that Humbrol thinners is not the same formula as Precision. They smell different for a start. I would always use the brand from the maker of the paint.

I have been told and believe it to be true that white spirit thins paint by breaking it down. It is not a thinners. A proper thinners is the same solution as the liquid element of the paint in which the pigment is suspended.

Don't forget that there were old formula and new formula Humbrol paints and you should not use old formula thinners with new formula paint or vice versa.

 

All the best

Ray

Edited March 8 by wainwright1

[Caley Jim]

I've used (and am still using) Precision thinners with both old and new Humbrol paints without any problems. All brush painting. 

 

Jim 

[wainwright1]

Is there a chemist in the house ?

 

All the best

Ray

[Andy Hayter]

Yes but without quite sophisticated analytical equipment and samples of all the thinners there is nothing to be done.

[Chas Levin]

I've also been told by various sources, including Precision themselves - that it's best to use the recommended thinners, made by the same company, because there are definitely different formulas. 

Amongst other things, some thinners have slower or faster evaporating elements for particular purposes. For example, varnish thinners - such as Precision Paints PQ10 - dries more slowly than their general thinners PQ8 and that's to allow the varnish to settle out into as smooth a surface as possible, something even more desirable in varnish than in paint.

I asked them whether that meant you could use their varnish thinners with their paint, in order to try and achieve a finer paint surface too and they said that shouldn't cause problems but it might give uneven finishes, depending on the particular paint... I've only tried it once, where I needed some paint to dry as slowly as possible to allow completing a pattern where the end needed to join on to the start, but as I'd also added a drop of linseed oil to the paint to retard drying time, I don't know how much effect the PQ10 had.

[kevinlms]

In MRC for 1974 June, W.A. Richards provides some prototype notes on a drawing and photos of a GCR 10 Ton sliding door van, where the colour is described as 'lead grey', which Dulux depict as this colour.

 

https://www.duluxheritage.co.uk/en/colours/1780015/lead-grey

 

Seems like it is much darker than Midland wagon grey.

 

But who knows what has happened with 'standard colours' over a century?

[Chas Levin]

19 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

In MRC for 1974 June, W.A. Richards provides some prototype notes on a drawing and photos of a GCR 10 Ton sliding door van, where the colour is described as 'lead grey', which Dulux depict as this colour.

 

https://www.duluxheritage.co.uk/en/colours/1780015/lead-grey

 

Seems like it is much darker than Midland wagon grey.

 

But who knows what has happened with 'standard colours' over a century?

 

That's interesting: I'd say that's certainly deserving of the name, but surely it represents Oxidised Lead?

 

As to the wider question, the other point is natural weathering and fading - many darkish colours would have lightened considerably after a while out on the road...

[billbedford]

Lead grey was just a mixture of white lead and black. It could be almost any value between black and off-white. 

[billbedford]

1 minute ago, Chas Levin said:

As to the wider question, the other point is natural weathering and fading - many darkish colours would have lightened considerably after a while out on the road...

 

White lead darkens in the presence of sulphur from burning coal. Hence, coach roofs became painted with white lead became grey quite quickly. 

[icw]

Nigel Digby's Liveries of the Pre-Grouping Railways describes GCR goods livery as a "light medium grey" and his illustration looks similar to Corneliuslundie's picture above, apart from, as Bill says, the solebars being body coloured.