Mystery location

[Ian Hargrave]

This is not Swansea Bay and the coaches are Stanier designed.

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, nigb55009 said:

If the original photo was taken a few years earlier than first mentioned, the Mumbles Railway wouldn`t be there because it didn`t open until 1928

 

Not quite.  I believe the electrification and the use of the Brush Traction double-deck trams was, as you say, in 1928 when the line was taken on by the local municipal tram & bus company, but the Swansea & Mumbles Railway opened in 1804 and in 1807 became the world's first passenger-carrying railway, using horse-drawn tramcar-like stock.  It later used a variety of small 'industrial' type steam locos, with no vacuum or air brakes, very much in tramroad style.  Trust me, if this photo had been taken looking over Swansea Bay, the Mumbles would be in the foreground. 

 

The main steelworks expansion at Port Talbot came about in the 1950s, when the Steel Company Of Wales put in a huge 3-mile long rolling mill.  The construction of Margam hump marshalling yard was in connection with this as well as being a rationalisation of local duplicated freight facilities.  The SCOW, now TATA, site is to the southeast of the River Afan and the harbour, and would be out of shot to the right of frame if this photo were taken at Brynmill or St.Gabriel's.  The area to the northwest of the Afan was largely undeveloped sand dunes and salt marsh, but this gave way rapidly to the Briton Ferry complex of forges, tinplate works, and chemical plants, which were very visible from across Swansea Bay and featured tall chimneys.  The area now contains the BP Chemical plant and other industrial sites, but the tinplate has all gone.

[Paul H Vigor]

8 hours ago, nigb55009 said:

I have found a video on Youtube filmed from a train leaving Swansea Victoria heading for Pontarddulais. The esplanade seems to run parallel to the line from

Swansea Bay Station, its not on an embankment, more of a low sea wall. The track is covered in sand, blown from the beach. On the landward side there is a grass

area then a road. It aws filmed in 1964, which would be after the Mumbles Railway closed.

If the original photo was taken a few years earlier than first mentioned, the Mumbles Railway wouldn`t be there because it didn`t open until 1928. As for the view

across the bay, how big would Port Talbot steelworks have been in the 1920s. I really wouldn`t have a clue as to its size. I would assume it would have opened in the

late 19th or early 20th century. There may not of been that much to see from a distance.

I think the buildings and signals visible in the background are Swansea Bay Station rather than, St Helens Road Station, which had a large footbridge at its western end.

The Swansea and Mumbles Railway opened in 1804.

[nigb55009]

My apologies, I meant to say the Mumbles Railway was electrified in 1928. The original horse drawn line did, as you say open in 1904. Steam traction was

introduced in the 1870s.

[Marshall5]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Profile is right for LMS period 1 or late Midland non-gangwayed.  My view is that it is double-track at Deganwy looking SSW. 

I don't think they are period 1 as there is no visible panelling.  More likely Stanier period 2 or 3.

Ray.

[beast66606]

On 02/03/2024 at 01:23, The Johnster said:

Anglesey is pretty ground down by the ice sheet that once covered it, and there would be no hills as high as the one here visible from Abergwyngregyn on the necessary bearing.  I'm convinced now it's Deganwy.

 

Not double track in the photo, and Deganwy has a sharp curve in the area where the line is straight in the photo, and a Deganwy has a footbridge which would be visible by the signal

Edited March 3 by beast66606

[Bilbo]

The Swansea Bay line was on what some would call an embankment as it was at the same level as the promenade that runs alongside the road which is at a lower level .You can't see the Mumbles Railway because it ran at road level which was of course below promenade level.This road would not be visible in the photo because it is at the left of the scene. It is hard to make out the Cenotaph/War Memorial which is on the promenade but if this photo is as early as you say i'm not sure if that would have been built. Likewise the Grandstand at St Helens Rugby Ground would be to the left but in the distance and it is hard to say if it is in the background of the photo and again may not have been built then. Its demolished now. The trackbed of the line from Victoria Station has now become part of the current promenade along with the part of the promenade visible in the photo.

I have to say as soon as I saw the photo and without reading any comments I was convinced it was Swansea Bay and part of the line between what we knew as Swansea Bay Station and heading towards Mumbles Road Station which was close to Blackpill.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

There's a limit to how much you can tell from telegraph poles and fences, but I can't help noticing that this looks a very similar setting (Swansea Bay):

There are two buildings on the left that look to be an exact match with the original photo, and the slope beyond looks right too.

 

It would be nice to find an image matching the hill on the right as well, but I don't know this area at all so wouldn't even know where to being looking.

[kevinlms]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

There's a limit to how much you can tell from telegraph poles and fences, but I can't help noticing that this looks a very similar setting (Swansea Bay):

There are two buildings on the left that look to be an exact match with the original photo, and the slope beyond looks right too.

 

It would be nice to find an image matching the hill on the right as well, but I don't know this area at all so wouldn't even know where to being looking.

If only you could get the original photographer to go back and take the photo from a slightly different angle!

[martinT]

10 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

There's a limit to how much you can tell from telegraph poles and fences, but I can't help noticing that this looks a very similar setting (Swansea Bay):

There are two buildings on the left that look to be an exact match with the original photo, and the slope beyond looks right too.

 

It would be nice to find an image matching the hill on the right as well, but I don't know this area at all so wouldn't even know where to being looking.

Fantastic - I'm sure you've cracked it so thanks Jeremy. Those 2 buildings on the left prove it I think. Also as you say the fencing is similar & the telegraph poles have 4 arms. Undoubtedly double track too! Where did your photo come from BTW?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Just now, martinT said:

Fantastic - I'm sure you've cracked it so thanks Jeremy. Those 2 buildings on the left prove it I think. Also as you say the fencing is similar & the telegraph poles have 4 arms. Undoubtedly double track too! Where did your photo come from BTW?

A Google image search for lms "swansea bay" found two similar photos on flikr. This one is a slightly better angle. The photo in my post is only an embedded link. Click on it and it will take you to the flikr page.

 

Deganwy was very plausible, and an area I used to know quite well, but I couldn't find anything that might match both background and foreground looking at maps. I wondered whether it could be the other side of the causeway on the Blaenau branch, but Glan Conwy didn't have any signalling and by Talycafn the river no longer looks like that.

 

I had a look at Grange over Sands as well, but found it difficult to fit in either foreground or background with maps and photographs. I didn't need to look up Port Carlisle since I know that area well, and it definitely isn't there.

 

[Bilbo]

I have checked "Portrait of the Central Wales Line" by Martin Smith published by Ian Allan. There is a photo on page 52 looking down the line towards Mumbles Road Station near Blackpill. It seems to confirm what Jeremy Cumberland says. A further inspection of the photo does show a white stone wall about 2 seats down on the promenade. This looks very much like the wall around the centotaph. B&R dvd No 10 gives a little more evidence of the buildings and one of the signals. 

[Merfyn Jones]

I worked for 32 years on the Llandudno branch and walked ever yard of it often.  I can certainly say it is not on that line.

My money is on the Swansea Black 5 picture as proof. 

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Merfyn Jones said:

I worked for 32 years on the Llandudno branch and walked ever yard of it often.  I can certainly say it is not on that line.

My money is on the Swansea Black 5 picture as proof. 

Agreed.  Although I didn't think of the Swansea Victoria line when I first saw the image, it is the distance to the hills on the right that confirm it as Swansea Bay and not Deganwy.  The hills on the other side of the Conwy estuary are considerably closer.

[martinT]

Having found the location there's one more obvious question - what was the likely working shown? A local train out of Swansea Victoria, possibly push-pull, but what was its likely destination? Gowerton? Pontardulais? The Llanmorlais branch closed in 1931 so probably before the photo.

[5BarVT]

Another vote for Abertawe.  In the original photo I’m fairly certain I can see the characteristic arch of the footbridge over Oystermouth Road. 
Paul.

[br2975]

On 03/03/2024 at 14:58, Jeremy Cumberland said:

There's a limit to how much you can tell from telegraph poles and fences, but I can't help noticing that this looks a very similar setting (Swansea Bay):

There are two buildings on the left that look to be an exact match with the original photo, and the slope beyond looks right too.

 

It would be nice to find an image matching the hill on the right as well, but I don't know this area at all so wouldn't even know where to being looking.

 

Edited March 7 by br2975