Mystery location

[martinT]

Any idea where this is? My first thoughts were that it might be a train on the Llandudno branch with Deganwy station in the far background where a couple of signals are. However the line seems to swing to the right whereas if Deganwy it should swing to the left!

 

The date is I guess the 1930s & the loco is a LNWR 0-6-2T so if not the Llandudno branch it is likely to be an ex-LNWR line.

Edited March 1 by martinT
typo

[Northmoor]

It looks like single track (which would mean it couldn't be Deganwy) but not easy to tell from the low angle.  If it's double it could be Grange-over-Sands station in the distance.

 

If it's single, I considered the Glasson Dock branch but couldn't find the location, also somewhere on the West Kirby - Hooton line on the Wirral, or the approach to Port Carlisle.

[Buhar]

I think it's double. There appears to be a peg off for the opposite line in the background.

Alan 

[Paul H Vigor]

Penclawdd, Gower, South-West Wales?

[beast66606]

43 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

 

If it's single, I considered the Glasson Dock branch but couldn't find the location, also somewhere on the West Kirby - Hooton line on the Wirral, or the approach to Port Carlisle.

 

Not on that line.

 

31 minutes ago, Buhar said:

I think it's double. There appears to be a peg off for the opposite line in the background.

Alan 

 

Could be a level crossing frame on which a single lever clears both protecting signals.

 

This bit looks single

 

[nigb55009]

Running along the edge of Swansea Bay. Somewhere around Brynmill or St Gabriels. Heading away from Swansea.

[Edwin_m]

2 hours ago, Buhar said:

I think it's double. There appears to be a peg off for the opposite line in the background.

Alan 

I think there's a speck of dust just under the signal which makes it look to be lowered, but it's actually at danger.  However, the visible track looks to be passing in front of the train, so it may be on another track that is a bit lower and hidden from view.  

[The Johnster]

Nah, the Swansea Bay line's up on an embankment and where's the Mumbles Railway?  I like the Penclawdd suggestion with the hills around Laugharne in the background beyond Whiteford Burrows, but the direction isn't quite right; you need to be looking more or less due west from this vantage point to include Whiteford Burrows and there's nobbut open sea behind them on that bearing,.  The hills look too close anyway.

 

So, where does the LNWR encounter coastline like this muddy estuary scenario on a single track branch?  Penclawdd, Amlwch, and um...  Ok, let's say we've misinterpreted the image and the line is actually double track (the angle makes it difficult to be certain either way); Swansea Bay is still out because of the lack of the Mumbles Railway, but it could be the Llandudno branch at Deganwy with Conway Morfa Burrows and Penmaenmawr in the background and the lens pointing SSW (this fits), Boulton-le-Sands/Hest Bank but what's the high ground where Morecombe should be, or a post-grouping train on the Furness with a Coal Tank at Grange-Over-Sands looking NE towards Arnside, with Warton Crag in the background (this also fits, but I don't think Warton Crag is as high as that; steep enough, though).  My favourite of those choices would be Deganwy, from the height and steepness of the hills in the background, which strongly suggests Penmaenmawr to me.

 

I think this is the 20s rather than the 30s, as the loco has no smokebox number plate.  The coaches do not look like LNWR profile to me.

Edited March 1 by The Johnster

[beast66606]

Very convinced it's single track - zoom in on the loco wheels

 

[Curlew]

Looks very much like the southern Lake District - maybe Grange over Sands area? The coaches look a bit like an LMS push-pull set. The loco seems to be push-pull fitted, I think.

[Steamport Southport]

Llandudno Junction/Deganwy.

 

Probably the closest you can get with Google Maps.

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2955683,-3.8351589,3a,75y,179.62h,89.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQ0iu4rYlcfyRceOeMh3jqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Edited March 1 by Steamport Southport

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Nah, the Swansea Bay line's up on an embankment and where's the Mumbles Railway?  I like the Penclawdd suggestion with the hills around Laugharne in the background beyond Whiteford Burrows, but the direction isn't quite right; you need to be looking more or less due west from this vantage point to include Whiteford Burrows and there's nobbut open sea behind them on that bearing,.  The hills look too close anyway.

 

So, where does the LNWR encounter coastline like this muddy estuary scenario on a single track branch?  Penclawdd, Amlwch, and um...  Ok, let's say we've misinterpreted the image and the line is actually double track (the angle makes it difficult to be certain either way); Swansea Bay is still out because of the lack of the Mumbles Railway, but it could be the Llandudno branch at Deganwy with Conway Morfa Burrows and Penmaenmawr in the background and the lens pointing SSW (this fits), Boulton-le-Sands/Hest Bank but what's the high ground where Morecombe should be, or a post-grouping train on the Furness with a Coal Tank at Grange-Over-Sands looking NE towards Arnside, with Warton Crag in the background (this also fits, but I don't think Warton Crag is as high as that; steep enough, though).  My favourite of those choices would be Deganwy, from the height and steepness of the hills in the background, which strongly suggests Penmaenmawr to me.

 

I think this is the 20s rather than the 30s, as the loco has no smokebox number plate.  The coaches do not look like LNWR profile to me.

The LNWR wasn't on an embankment the whole way along the seafront to Blackpill and the Mumbles Railway wasn't side-by-side with it the whole way either.  The hills to the right, look right as well.

[martinT]

Thanks for all your suggestions - they've given me more leads to investigate. I wish we could establish whether it was single or double track. I must admit my first reaction was that it was single - bit it's not conclusive & it would rule out Deganwy & the Furness line. Can anyone positive identify the carriages - LMS I believe rather than LNWR (or Furness).

[The Johnster]

But the Mumbles Railway was between the Oystermouth Road and the LNWR main line all the way from Victoria until the latter crossed both on bridges to turn NW up the Clyne gorge.  There is no low promontory in that line of sight (due north from Brynmill) across Swansea Bay, and the background mountains would have to be those behind Port Talbot or Briton Ferry, in those days a hotbed of tinplate works and smelters; where’s the pollution?  Could be Sunday, I ‘spose, but where’s the chimneys?

[Steamport Southport]

Double track. Still is.

 

Signal cabin you can just see in the photo is still there.

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.295019,-3.8350106,3a,75y,184.21h,81.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2b_sCJe4Ra9vZwk5boiQ_w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D2b_sCJe4Ra9vZwk5boiQ_w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D282.1091%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

22 minutes ago, martinT said:

Thanks for all your suggestions - they've given me more leads to investigate. I wish we could establish whether it was single or double track. I must admit my first reaction was that it was single - bit it's not conclusive & it would rule out Deganwy & the Furness line. Can anyone positive identify the carriages - LMS I believe rather than LNWR (or Furness).

Profile is right for LMS period 1 or late Midland non-gangwayed.  My view is that it is double-track at Deganwy looking SSW. 

Edited March 2 by The Johnster

[KeithMacdonald]

Is it near Abergwyngregyn, on the North Wales coast, with Anglesey in the background?

 

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Is it near Abergwyngregyn, on the North Wales coast, with Anglesey in the background?

 

 

Nope. Deganwy, by what is now the car park. 

 

Most of that area has changed a lot in the last 100 years or so. Most of the housing is quite new.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2955683,-3.8351589,3a,75y,218.03h,90.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQ0iu4rYlcfyRceOeMh3jqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Anglesey is pretty ground down by the ice sheet that once covered it, and there would be no hills as high as the one here visible from Abergwyngregyn on the necessary bearing.  I'm convinced now it's Deganwy.

[roythebus1]

10 hours ago, Curlew said:

Looks very much like the southern Lake District - maybe Grange over Sands area? The coaches look a bit like an LMS push-pull set. The loco seems to be push-pull fitted, I think.

Yes, the loco has additional pipework on the bufferbeam for push-pull working.

 

[Edwin_m]

12 hours ago, beast66606 said:

Very convinced it's single track - zoom in on the loco wheels

Edited March 2 by Edwin_m

[Edwin_m]

Yes I now tend to agree.  The horizontal bar on the fence in front of the train confuses things.  

[martinT]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Profile is right for LMS period 1 or late Midland non-gangwayed.  My view is that it is double-track at Deganwy looking SSW. 

Thanks for the carriage identification. I've now forwarded the photo to the Deganwy History Group in the hope that local knowledege can rule Deganwy in or out.

[nigb55009]

I have found a video on Youtube filmed from a train leaving Swansea Victoria heading for Pontarddulais. The esplanade seems to run parallel to the line from

Swansea Bay Station, its not on an embankment, more of a low sea wall. The track is covered in sand, blown from the beach. On the landward side there is a grass

area then a road. It aws filmed in 1964, which would be after the Mumbles Railway closed.

If the original photo was taken a few years earlier than first mentioned, the Mumbles Railway wouldn`t be there because it didn`t open until 1928. As for the view

across the bay, how big would Port Talbot steelworks have been in the 1920s. I really wouldn`t have a clue as to its size. I would assume it would have opened in the

late 19th or early 20th century. There may not of been that much to see from a distance.

I think the buildings and signals visible in the background are Swansea Bay Station rather than, St Helens Road Station, which had a large footbridge at its western end.

[martinT]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think this is the 20s rather than the 30s, as the loco has no smokebox number plate.  The coaches do not look like LNWR profile to me.

 

but see https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2210756 for a 1946 photo by Ben Brooksbank of a LNWR Coaltank without SB number plate. Interestingly it seems to be auto-fitted & what is more the photo was taken at Paxton Street Shed, Swansea. It does however have a shedcode plate.