LaisDCC and TCS - facts and evidence please

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

In my recent thread about budget-friendly DCC during the cost of living crisis, various allegations were made that LaisDCC decoders are copies of TCS decoders, that TCS sued LaisDCC and won and that LaisDCC is a disreputable company. LaisDCC are the cheapest new loco decoders on the market so it's important for a budget modeller to know the facts about this when deciding what to buy. 

 

I have not been able to find any record of a court judgement against LaisDCC or its distributors. I have found many forum threads containing allegations such as "cloning", "pirating", "copying" and "reverse engineering". Where these cite evidence it's usually that the manufacturer ID CV was identical, other CVs and software were identical (including bugs) or that the PCB design was very similar. Some also state that an older TCS design was used by LaisDCC. 

 

To establish the facts it would be really useful to see: 

1. Any statements by LaisDCC, its distributors or TCS on these allegations. 

2. Any records such as court filings, judgements or reports of out-of-court settlements. 

3. Any TCS patents or other IP which was infringed and whether it has expired or not. Patents usually last 20 years. 

[WIMorrison]

I have posted the TCS statement made after the events here previously.

[YT-1300]

43 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

In my recent thread about budget-friendly DCC during the cost of living crisis, various allegations were made that LaisDCC decoders are copies of TCS decoders, that TCS sued LaisDCC and won and that LaisDCC is a disreputable company. LaisDCC are the cheapest new loco decoders on the market so it's important for a budget modeller to know the facts about this when deciding what to buy. 

 

I have not been able to find any record of a court judgement against LaisDCC or its distributors. I have found many forum threads containing allegations such as "cloning", "pirating", "copying" and "reverse engineering". Where these cite evidence it's usually that the manufacturer ID CV was identical, other CVs and software were identical (including bugs) or that the PCB design was very similar. Some also state that an older TCS design was used by LaisDCC. 

 

To establish the facts it would be really useful to see: 

1. Any statements by LaisDCC, its distributors or TCS on these allegations. 

2. Any records such as court filings, judgements or reports of out-of-court settlements. 

3. Any TCS patents or other IP which was infringed and whether it has expired or not. Patents usually last 20 years. 

Lais are the cheapest, but unlike other manufacturers, you have no support if it goes pop of its own accord, which they often do.  Buy cheap, buy twice.

 

Budget conscious modellers should be on the look out for the best value, which is very rarely the cheapest.  Spend the extra few pounds on a Lenz, Zimo or Digitrax (and quite a few more out there) and you wont go wrong.

 

Cloning or not, with Lais chips, its pot-luck whether you get a good or a bad one, and there is no rhyme or reason to it.

[Harlequin]

Have you tried searching the forum?

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/search/?q=lais tcs&quick=1&type=forums_topic

 

[jpendle]

2 hours ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

I have not been able to find any record of a court judgement against LaisDCC or its distributors.

You wouldn't in the UK.

In the USA it's a different matter. ( I don't have any details so I'll not say more)

 

Regards,

 

John P

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

4 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

I have posted the TCS statement made after the events here previously.

Link please? 

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Have you tried searching the forum?

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/search/?q=lais tcs&quick=1&type=forums_topic

 

Yes. Plenty of allegations and speculation. I would be immensely grateful for some facts and evidence to enable cash-strapped consumers to make an informed decision. 

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

4 hours ago, YT-1300 said:

Lais are the cheapest, but unlike other manufacturers, you have no support if it goes pop of its own accord, which they often do.  Buy cheap, buy twice.

 

Budget conscious modellers should be on the look out for the best value, which is very rarely the cheapest.  Spend the extra few pounds on a Lenz, Zimo or Digitrax (and quite a few more out there) and you wont go wrong.

 

Cloning or not, with Lais chips, its pot-luck whether you get a good or a bad one, and there is no rhyme or reason to it.

In the UK the consumer's contract is with the seller, not the manufacturer. 

If the decoder "goes pop" the seller is on the hook not the manufacturer. That makes sense because the manufacturer could be anywhere in the world, whereas the seller will be in the UK for a UK purchase. 

Out of interest, what direct experience do you have with LaisDCC decoders being pot luck? 

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

2 hours ago, jpendle said:

You wouldn't in the UK.

In the USA it's a different matter. ( I don't have any details so I'll not say more)

 

Regards,

 

John P

Yes, we live in a globalised world. Links to USA info please? 

[Bigskybirds]

I have over 250 Laisdcc fitted locomotives mainly Plux22 and some 8 and 21 pin decoders, never had a single failure or issue. 

[YT-1300]

8 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

In the UK the consumer's contract is with the seller, not the manufacturer. 

If the decoder "goes pop" the seller is on the hook not the manufacturer. That makes sense because the manufacturer could be anywhere in the world, whereas the seller will be in the UK for a UK purchase. 

Out of interest, what direct experience do you have with LaisDCC decoders being pot luck? 

I've known people to be refused help from the sellers when their Lais chips have died, especially since it came out about them being clones.

 

I had 3, all three died within weeks of install, 2 of them surged for no reason.

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

3 minutes ago, YT-1300 said:

I've known people to be refused help from the sellers when their Lais chips have died, especially since it came out about them being clones.

 

I had 3, all three died within weeks of install, 2 of them surged for no reason.

Sorry to hear that. I've used 20+ LaisDCC decoders with no problems. Here's some info about what to do if a product you've bought fails: https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy#who-is-responsible-for-the-fault

 

And a gentle reminder that this thread isn't about subjective views and experience of these decoders. It's a request for facts and evidence. 

[YT-1300]

4 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

Sorry to hear that. I've used 20+ LaisDCC decoders with no problems. Here's some info about what to do if a product you've bought fails: https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy#who-is-responsible-for-the-fault

 

And a gentle reminder that this thread isn't about subjective views and experience of these decoders. It's a request for facts and evidence. 

Thank you, Im well aware of my consumer rights

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

And a gentle reminder that this thread isn't about subjective views and experience of these decoders. It's a request for facts and evidence. 

Welcome to the real world of online fora. Whatever the OP's intention, people will post as they see fit. If you have 20+ Lais decoders doing the biz, and I'm sure I have several, why ask the question? 

[Darius43]

2 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

Sorry to hear that. I've used 20+ LaisDCC decoders with no problems. Here's some info about what to do if a product you've bought fails: https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy#who-is-responsible-for-the-fault

 

And a gentle reminder that this thread isn't about subjective views and experience of these decoders. It's a request for facts and evidence. 

It strikes me that you are asking for ironclad information to justify your purchasing of cheap decoders with others having to do the grunt work to get this information for you.  Having read the responses above (and those on the linked thread) in my view there is reasonable information to form a conclusion.  
 

Given the legal ramifications involved, it is unlikely that anyone is going to provide you with chapter and verse on a public web forum, your frequent demands for facts and specifics notwithstanding.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[NBL]

41 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

Yes, we live in a globalised world. Links to USA info please? 

Why don't you find the information yourself?

 

You are coming across as demanding and condescending in both the threads you have on this subject, do you have an interest in Laisdcc that you are not declaring?

[Luke Piewalker]

 

[Harlequin]

The 2015 statement put out by TCS (referred to in many sources) seems to be unfindable online. My guess is that it has been removed as part of the settlement with Lais.

 

The following page contains a very informative post by Stuart Baker who is an "industry insider", possibly even a TCS insider:

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/laisdcc-decoders-12509538

 

That's the closest I can get to "the horse's mouth" at the moment.

 

Edited March 9 by Harlequin

[jpendle]

3 hours ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

Yes, we live in a globalised world. Links to USA info please? 

 

Which part of

 

6 hours ago, jpendle said:

( I don't have any details so I'll not say more)

 

did you not understand?

 

I couldn't care less whether people use Lais decoders or not, but why you insist on demanding evidence rather than taking forum members at their word is beyond me.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[RAF96]

13 hours ago, Darius43 said:

with others having to do the grunt work to get this information for you.

Reminds me of those on line pleas from folk doing a degree/masters/phd asking for other folk to supply them with enough material so they can throw a thesis together to pass their exams.

[jamesed]

The information about litigation, and the relationship between Lais and the other chap in China who makes Lais clone decoders is all quite interesting.  I recall reading about it on this forum (but before anyonde asks, no I can't provide a link) but surely none of this is relevant.   We're all quite capable of seeing that the performace derived from using a Lais decoder falls short compared with a quality brand and even mid priced brands. I've certainly seen the difference between Lais and Zimo which backs up that well known phrase "you get what you pay for". 

 

If you're on a tight budget and are prepared to compromise on performance then why not use Lais. They work, in their own way, and are cheap, and they meet the demand at that end of the market. A bit like when you go to Tesco and you have the choice of the "Tesco Value" range or the "Tesco Taste the Difference" range, both may satisfy your hunger but one will have more flavour and be more satisfying - if you are happy to oay a bit extra.

 

I use Lais decoders for accessory switching and they are great for that but I'd never put one in a loco. That's my choice and one that I know a lot of other people share but that choice isn't in the slightest bit influenced by whatever international litigation may have taken place in the past.

[Darius43]

28 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

Reminds me of those on line pleas from folk doing a degree/masters/phd asking for other folk to supply them with enough material so they can throw a thesis together to pass their exams.

Haven’t they got AI for that now?

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

So just to wrap this one up, I can carry on buying LaisDCC with a clear conscience as the facts are: 

There's allegedly plenty of hearsay that x pirated y, if you search this forum/Google for it.

But if you ask for specifics, the info has disappeared.

Some other people cannot possibly talk about it for legal reasons because of ongoing litigation in China (a very odd jurisdiction to bring an IP suit given the weakness of the rule of law there rather than the G7 countries where the allegedly pirated decoders are being sold).

My own most charitable interpretation of the info provided is that either legal action happened and was settled or there was no legal action at all. Hence why zero evidence of any legal action in the public domain. 

The products continue to be sold in jurisdictions where TCS or any other injured party could actually seek rapid and effective legal redress if they decided to (US and UK). Assuming they have protected their UP adequately. 

It's astonishing that seeking facts about an IP dispute to inform a purchasing decision elicits such reactions. 

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

On 09/03/2024 at 19:35, YT-1300 said:

Thank you, Im well aware of my consumer rights

Great! Please share your knowledge with your acquaintances who purchased faulty products. 

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

On 09/03/2024 at 19:37, Oldddudders said:

Welcome to the real world of online fora. Whatever the OP's intention, people will post as they see fit. If you have 20+ Lais decoders doing the biz, and I'm sure I have several, why ask the question? 

Because all sorts of statements are being made that those decoders were pirated. And that alleged piracy is being used as a reason why other people shouldn't buy them even though they're the cheapest product on the market. Given the cost of living crisis, where every penny counts, I'd like to get to the bottom of it.