mikesndbs Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Hi there I have one of these wagons by mainline I think it is brown it's number is B 4 2 9 8 1 6K however looking through my book it would appear these numbers never went higher than 429799 can anyone help 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 All I observe about that identity is that the K suffix indicates that it's supposed to depict a former private owner wagon that's been taken into capital stock. As to the actual provenance, I haven't got the book (Rowlands?) to hand just now. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 12 minutes ago, 'CHARD said: All I observe about that identity is that the K suffix indicates that it's supposed to depict a former private owner wagon that's been taken into capital stock. As to the actual provenance, I haven't got the book (Rowlands?) to hand just now. Thanks I found the details now it was part of diagram one/149 lot 3120 a thousand off bill at Sheldon in 1958 so it's odd that it should have the k prefix as you observe 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 41 minutes ago, 'CHARD said: All I observe about that identity is that the K suffix indicates that it's supposed to depict a former private owner wagon that's been taken into capital stock. As to the actual provenance, I haven't got the book (Rowlands?) to hand just now. . The 'K' suffix does not denote former Private Owner wagons, but that it is a '21 ton' capacity wagon. . The 'K' suffix also appeared on 21 ton minerals (both fitted and unfitted) . An 'N' suffix appeared on 24.5 ton wagons (hoppers and minerals) to identify them also. . I have seen one image of a 24.5 ton mineral ( nicknamed 'bombers' in South Wales) with an 'L' suffix, eg B281478L as running in 1969, but why this should differ from the normal 'N' - I know not . The suffixes were allegedly added to assist NCB personnel identifying different capacity wagons in dark and dingy washery screens. . . As a rough guide the BR built 21 ton hoppers were numbered in the series B41000 to B433749. . There were a number of different diagrams ( 1/141, 1/143, 1/145, 1/146 and 1/149) as well as a greater number of 'lots' built, which incorporated quite a lot of detail differences. . . I suspect that the 'real' B429816K (subject of the model in the OP above) was built with a welded body, not the rivetted body shown - as it was built with vacuum brakes. . . Edited March 27 by br2975 2 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Were any rivetted examples lettered in this style? I only recollect the welded sort;. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 7 minutes ago, Fat Controller said: Were any rivetted examples lettered in this style? I only recollect the welded sort;. . And the lettering on the model differs from the more normally applied HOUSE COAL / CONCENTRATION located on the two central panels of the welded body wagons, not offset as in the model shown.. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted March 27 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 27 40 minutes ago, mikesndbs said: Thanks I found the details now it was part of diagram one/149 lot 3120 a thousand off bill at Sheldon in 1958 so it's odd that it should have the k prefix as you observe Was diagram 1/149 really built with rivetted bodies to the original design as late as 1958? Building had generally gone over to the revised BR design with welded construction by then. The underframe of the model represents the conventional type with push-rod brakes, whereas rivetted bodies mostly had the very characteristic LNER pattern with tall brake lever and clasp brakes derived from NER practice. See Paul Bartlett's photos at https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperrivet https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld To bang my usual drum, it is well past time for an accurate range of these wagons rtr in 00 and N (and TT now as well I suppose) as they are typically required in significant numbers. The Airfix-originated model (as in the OP) doesn't represent a typical vehicle and also forms the basis for the Dapol N gauge version. The Hornby model represents the rivetted type quite well but seems to have vanished from the range. The available kits are not simple to build (especially in N) and dont represent all types. I think there are some nice etched kits in 2mm scale though. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 37 minutes ago, br2975 said: have seen one image of a 24.5 ton mineral ( nicknamed 'bombers' in South Wales) with an 'L' suffix, eg B281478L as running in 1969, but why this should differ from the normal 'N' - I know not L was apparenly intended to show 24T capacity, so the wagon may have been modified in some way, or it was an error. 14 minutes ago, Flying Pig said: Was diagram 1/149 really built with rivetted bodies to the original design as late as 1958? No. 1/149 was a single Lot (3120) of 1,000 welded 21T hoppers built in 1958/9, 100 vacuum piped, the rest unfitted. They had roller bearings; buffer design varied. A number were later given disc brake VB in 1963, removed 1969-70. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted March 27 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, Cwmtwrch said: No. 1/149 was a single Lot (3120) of 1,000 welded 21T hoppers built in 1958/9, 100 vacuum piped, the rest unfitted. They had roller bearings; buffer design varied. A number were later given disc brake VB in 1963, removed 1969-70. Thanks. In other words, the model is an approximation like most of its Airfix-derived siblings, so probably not worth getting too concerned about livey details. Just put a string of them behind an original Mainline Peak and enjoy. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 17 minutes ago, Flying Pig said: ...it is well past time for an accurate range of these wagons rtr... Regarding the fitted welded coal hoppers that ran in fixed sets up to North London from 1958, those I saw on ER and MR were branded HOUSE COAL CONCENTRATION or CHARRINGTONS. Were other business names to be seen on these, and when did this traffic go extinct? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halvarras Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, br2975 said: . And the lettering on the model differs from the more normally applied HOUSE COAL / CONCENTRATION located on the two central panels of the welded body wagons, not offset as in the model shown.. Which is how the original Mainline examples were printed (I have three of them). The model shown above is Dapol's version of the same livery with the inappropriately larger lettering (I suppose I should add 'as far as I know'....!) 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 5 hours ago, 'CHARD said: All I observe about that identity is that the K suffix indicates that it's supposed to depict a former private owner wagon that's been taken into capital stock. As to the actual provenance, I haven't got the book (Rowlands?) to hand just now. K simply means it is 21ton, and N means it is 24.5t. Used on both hoppers and flat bottom double door minerals. Paul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: Regarding the fitted welded coal hoppers that ran in fixed sets up to North London from 1958, those I saw on ER and MR were branded HOUSE COAL CONCENTRATION or CHARRINGTONS. Were other business names to be seen on these, and when did this traffic go extinct? No, only the two. Paul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 hours ago, hmrspaul said: K simply means it is 21ton, and N means it is 24.5t. Used on both hoppers and flat bottom double door minerals. Paul Yeah, I realised my error shortly after posting but couldn't get back to edit or delete. Had no idea that the K was a weight identifier. Every day's a school day hey! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 Brilliant info as always! Note the info plate says 21VB, assuming VB is fully fitted or is this one of the 100 that were blow through? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 40 minutes ago, mikesndbs said: Note the info plate says 21VB, assuming VB is fully fitted or is this one of the 100 that were blow through? As built it was piped, with 2ft Dowty buffers and International Screw couplings. It was not included in those converted to disc brake VB. Some of this diagram were given VB from 1963 onwards, which would be consistent with boxed pre-TOPS information panels; they were also in the 1960s rebody programme. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted March 28 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 28 23 hours ago, Flying Pig said: Was diagram 1/149 really built with rivetted bodies to the original design as late as 1958? Building had generally gone over to the revised BR design with welded construction by then. The underframe of the model represents the conventional type with push-rod brakes, whereas rivetted bodies mostly had the very characteristic LNER pattern with tall brake lever and clasp brakes derived from NER practice. See Paul Bartlett's photos at https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperrivet https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld To bang my usual drum, it is well past time for an accurate range of these wagons rtr in 00 and N (and TT now as well I suppose) as they are typically required in significant numbers. The Airfix-originated model (as in the OP) doesn't represent a typical vehicle and also forms the basis for the Dapol N gauge version. The Hornby model represents the rivetted type quite well but seems to have vanished from the range. The available kits are not simple to build (especially in N) and dont represent all types. I think there are some nice etched kits in 2mm scale though. Parkside kits Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted March 28 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 28 1 hour ago, MJI said: Parkside kits Yup and I mentioned them, but they are quite a bit more fiddly than a standard open or van. And I still contend that bread and butter wagons like these should be the ones available rtr. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 22 hours ago, MJI said: Parkside kits The Peco Parkside kit for the BR 21T is only good for the earlier welded bodies, as the later 21Ts did not have the hopper supports, they instead had three sections of angle iron at each end to support the hopper. Both of the Peco Parkside kits could do with a good update, as the LNER riveted 21T is only good for a small batch and the BR one could do with the bits to make both styles of hopper support , the support are almost identical to those on the rebodied 21Ts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 I just found this on Flickr when looking for something else. Cardiff Canton c1970 by John Turner cheers 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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