GWR 'Toad' brake van lettering, c.1908

[magmouse]

I am currently building a GWR Toad (brake van) in 7mm scale, from the Peco kit. According to Great Western Way (2nd edition, 2009), by 1900 the home depot of the van was shown in block letters, with 5” initials and 4.5” for the remaining letters (previously it had been shown it italic letters). From January 1903, vans allocated to guards had their name painted on, with other vans marked “spare” (though this has not been confirmed photographically). Allocating vans to guards ceased around 1912.

 

For my 1908 period, I therefore need both the home depot in block capitals, and the guard's name. I want to have the pre 1904 small "G.W.R", not the post 1904 large 25" GW. However, having looked in the usual sources, I can't find a photo showing how the various lettering elements were arranged on the van side. There are plenty of photos later, with 16" GW (1921 onwards), and a couple earlier, with just the guard's name in italics, but none in my time period. The closest I have is this:

 

[ image from http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html - the forum software won't allow embedded images from non-https sites, so I have had to add the image to my post. If there are objections, I will remove it. ]

 

It's possible that the arrangement of guard's and depot name was the same pre-1904, but it would be good to confirm if this, and whether the guard's name changed to small block capitals (as shown here) or remained as italics for the period I want.

 

Does anyone have any photos showing what I am looking for, or any other sources of information?

 

Thanks -

 

Nick.

[Miss Prism]

AA1 56933 in 1904/5 (a guinea pig to demonstrate the new 25" lettering). Cast depot ('SWINDON' in this case) and number plates. The guard's name is in italic. There is no tare indication (which seems like a painting mistake to me). For pre-1904, my guess is that the number, guard's name (where applied), 'G.W.R' and tare were all on the same plank. 

 

[magmouse]

Thanks, Russ - if nothing else comes to light, I think I will follow the logic you have suggested.

 

Regarding the tare weight, perhaps this was on a cast plate, as with general merchandise wagons that had cast plates, so they didn't feel the need to paint it on as well?

 

Nick.

[Miss Prism]

I don't know. Plate 643 of the bible shows an AA1 in 1900 with no tare indication (cast or painted). I suppose there is a logic here, i.e. what is the point of showing the tare weight of a brake van?  (Although that policy, if it was a policy, was overturned a few years later.)

 

 

Edited March 28 by Miss Prism

[Steamport Southport]

The only reason I can think of is one being used as a Road Van.

 

The LSWR Road Vans certainly had tare weights painted on them.

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

This was my conclusion, for what it's worth:

 

 

 

My references were the photos you and @Miss Prism have posted and also this:

 

 

But I'm now suffering from a sinking feeling that I've got G.W.R. and the number the wrong way round. Plus I'm annoyed by the information that the guard's name was only painted on from Jan 1903, as I model 1902, and had some fun fabricating the name F. Goodish from various bits of transfers for "Goods" and "Fish" and inventing a whole back-story for him...

[magmouse]

Thanks, Stephen. Interesting and helpful to hear that you have come to the same conclusion regarding the arrangement of the various elements.

 

Slinn dates the change from G.W.R on the left to it being on the right to around 1893, so yours would be rather a straggler to have this arrangement still in 1902. In any case, Slinn dates to start of grey livery for brake vans as "by 1896", so LH G.W.R lettering would be with red livery.

 

Slinn references the (re)introduction of painting the guard's name on vans as January 1903, citing a GWR circular. So you are only out by months - sorry if that means the ingeniously named F Goodish is, like Bunbury, quite exploded.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

As to grey for brake vans, for some reason I had the idea they were grey from early on. 

 

 No. 56013 was from old series lot 680, which I think puts it around 1892/3, so I suppose it could just have scraped in with LH GWR and have survived ten years without repainting. But I'm minded to re-do it. It needs properly finishing, anyway.

[Miss Prism]

When did painted guard's name cease to be applied?

 

[Mikkel]

Crop from edge of well-known photo from Bath, dated 1908. Frustrating angle, but the plate is interesting. Could be special instructions of course. Note pattern of rain strips.

 

 

Edited March 30 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

No. 56013 was from old series lot 680, which I think puts it around 1892/3, so I suppose it could just have scraped in with LH GWR and have survived ten years without repainting. But I'm minded to re-do it. It needs properly finishing, anyway.

 

 

Atkins et al say this was taken 1902. Left-hand GWR. Admittedly a demo photo from Swindon, but the wagon looks in fair condition.

 

 

 

The "Disused Stations" site states that this is West Bay Bridport in 1906. Wagon extreme left has left-hand GWR, possibly fourth from left also. But could be wrong date, especially as no 25" lettering present.

 

 

Can't find any left-hand GWR's in the post-1905 Reading goods yard photos that we often refer to.

 

Edited March 30 by Mikkel

[magmouse]

5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

When did painted guard's name cease to be applied?

 

 

According to Slinn, Great Western Way, 2nd edition 2009, p.123 on, the chronology goes like this:

 

1873 onwards - guards allocated their own vans, and the guard’s name is painted on the side.

 

By the end of the 1880s, guard’s name omitted, and depot name painted on, in italics.

 

From c.1894, with the introduction of cast plates on merchandise wagons, similar plates were sometimes used to show the home depot.

 

By 1896 the body colour had been changed to grey, including handrails.

 

By 1900 the depot is shown in block letters, with 5” initials and 4.5” remaining letters.

 

From January 1903, vans allocated to guards had their name painted on, with other vans marked “spare” (though this is not confirmed photographically).

 

Allocating vans to guards ceased around 1912.

 

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Crop from edge of well-known photo from Bath, dated 1908. Frustrating angle, but the plate is interesting. Could be special instructions of course. Note pattern of rain strips.

 

 

Wow - I’ve looked at that photo several times, and never noticed the plate on the brake van. My focus has always been on the wagons beyond, and their sheets.

 

I suspect the plate is for the home depot name, though it is interesting that it is on the right hand of the two centre panels, unlike the example @Miss Prism posted above (but the same side as the painted Crewe label in the photo in my first post). The best bet is to have a long depot name that has to split across both panels, as in @Compound2632’s model!

 

Nick.

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Crop from edge of well-known photo from Bath, dated 1908. Frustrating angle, but the plate is interesting. Could be special instructions of course. Note pattern of rain strips.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure the first line on that plate is BRISTOL and the second line could be EAST YARD. Which existed by 1900 according to the NLS old maps.

 

Edit: on a subsequent examination I'm tending towards EAST DEPOT which is what it's marked as on the contemporary map:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/106018529

Edited March 30 by Mol_PMB

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Atkins et al say this was taken 1902. Left-hand GWR.

 

I have a couple of suitably old wagons with LH GWR. But I think my brake needs re-doing.

 

Incidentally, the two above with cast plates, 56933 and 56975, both six wheelers for which I haven't transcribed lots and numbering from Atkins, must have been built c. 1902 as numerically they're after the last lot of AA3s.

[Chrisbr]

On 30/03/2024 at 08:57, Compound2632 said:

Incidentally, the two above with cast plates, 56933 and 56975, both six wheelers for which I haven't transcribed lots and numbering from Atkins, must have been built c. 1902 as numerically they're after the last lot of AA3s.

 

56933  - Lot 383, built Aug 1902

56975 -  Lot 336, built Dec 1900

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Chrisbr said:

56933  - Lot 383, built Aug 1902

56975 -  Lot 336, built Dec 1900

 

Demonstrating that the Great Western, like the ancient Romans, sometimes counted backwards.