Fake Dapol Products

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, maico said:

 

This sounds like arbitrage. People list hundreds of items on Ebay based on being able to obtain stock from sites like Amazon. They add a small percentage mark-up. They only purchase the stock if they have a confirmed sale. There is software available to do this. I bet there is only one unauthorized source of Dapol O gauge in China.

That could explain it, as the sellers have thousands of random items for sale that certainly dont come across as a model specialist in anyway.

That could be misguiding the appearance of hundreds of each to actually maybe being no more than a couple…

this could change the thought process quite a bit.. they may just be some left overs at the factory office.

Edited April 10 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

Although serial numbers are not a panacea they would help. A few months ago I bought a new camera and the shop did an old school receipt, writing out the make, model and serial numbers (body + lens) on a headed note pad with carbon copy, signed and dated, dealer stamp then attached the till receipt. No ambiguity about what was bought and from who. You could replicate a dealers headed note paper, stamp and signature but how far do you go? 

 

The UK has never really did stamped warranty cards, in much of the world a warranty needs to have a stamped warranty card. Although I think one thing the UK still does well is consumer protection. Making shops liable is slightly unfair as they are just retailers in most cases but it's generally easier to just go back to the shop in most cases than do a manufacturer warranty claim. And of course, their responsibility is not limited to 12 months, meaning that if you buy from a UK dealer the manufacturer warranty is a nice to have but not essential unless the shop goes kaput. However good luck with a manufacturer warranty if they go kaput.

[jjb1970]

On this case, beyond the obvious that something untoward has happened it's speculation as to what is going on. The effort and costs of counterfeiting a model train and returns on offer mean it is unlikely to be a counterfeiting operation in the way of fashion goods and watches. Some of those counterfeiting operations involve big sums for production but the potential rewards are also big. The market for British O gauge model trains is hardly a major international one with high margins like expensive watches. So most likely it is unauthorised production and/or distribution going back to the factory used by Dapol. But that is also just speculation. Another, in my view less likely explanation, could be a dispute between Dapol and the factory. These could be factory seconds, rather than destroying goods failing QC send them through the backdoor. You don't have to search very hard to find sellers specialising in factory seconds, while some will be legitimate I suspect most aren't. 

[jjb1970]

There have been allegations of actual copy products in model trains. A few years ago one of those magazine/model outfits (the type who do major advertising of the buy issue 1 for £1.99 and have the price for following releases in much smaller letters) we're making moulds from models made by other producers, reverse engineering. And at least one US supplier of diesel locomotive body shells was accused of making rising moulds from bodies removed from RTR models.

[St Enodoc]

17 hours ago, TheQ said:

You can buy from the UK and find it's a copy from elsewhere, I bought something from a UK seller "UK made" item..

When it arrived under the UK label was the original made in Pakistan label.

 

Some years ago when doing a summer job we were called into the receiving warehouse to witness the opening of a case of whisky bottles.. three were missing from the sealed case. So you can guarantee 3 bottles from that case left the Bells factory by the back door.

Unusual for the angels' share to be post-bottling...

[jjb1970]

These days people tend to forget one of the attractions of containerization was to reduce pilferage across the transport chain.

[kevinlms]

7 hours ago, Simond said:

Kevin,

 

I do not know.

 

As I originally explained, my supposition is that the so-called “fake” products are made on the same production lines from exactly the same materials, in the same moulds, with the same paint and transfers, probably by the same staff, and are packed in the same boxes as “genuine” ones.  They are exactly & precisely the same.  They are not really “fake”.
 

The difference is they have been sold through a different & unauthorised route, (the “back door” if you will) meaning that a) they compete with, and impact sales of legitimate product, and b) Dapol and its authorised resellers make no margin on these sales, both of which impact Dapol’s recovery of their investments, and profitability, which none of us want, I expect.

 

On this basis, as has been noted, and as I noted in my original post, the only way that they can be differentiated from those sold by an authorised sales outlet, is by the sales receipt, and only then if it is itemised.

 

I doubt that Dapol would want to give a great deal of information, it wouldn’t help them.

 

atb

Simon

So absolutely, you are making the claim that these 'fakes' are as good or the same as the real ones supplied officially via Dapol.

 

So I ask again, how do you KNOW this is true, or are you making up what you want to believe to be true?

 

Fakes come in all 'standards' for want of a better term, from indistinguishable to most people, to absolute crap. One thing for sure, any warranty won't be honoured by the real business behind genuine products.

[jjb1970]

Simond was quite clear:

 

The items are almost certainly made using the same tooling and processes that the “genuine” ones are, are probably packed in the same boxes, from the same printers and will likely be in all respects indistinguishable from those bought from the Dapol website or factory shop.  I wonder how Dapol can say that they won’t be eligible for warranty, as they won’t be able to distinguish such products from those they have sold any more than the customer can (except by the receipt, perhaps).

 

The items in question are most probably traded via the factory back door, and will certainly negatively affect Dapol’s profitability, so there are good moral and practical arguments for not buying them, I suspect “fraudulently sold” would probably be a better description.  I do hope that Dapol are able to close the leak, I doubt they will recoup their losses.

 

Underlining mine, copied from Simond's post. He speculated and presented a hypothesis for the issue flagged by Dapol. Speculating may be unhelpful and wrong, but in that case most of the thread is in the same boat (including me). The post was very clear it was offering a possibility (one which I suspect is shared by many others, it's the most likely explanation I can think of) and offered opinion based on that explanation. It did not claim to be making a definitive statement.

[kevinlms]

3 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Simond was quite clear:

 

The items are almost certainly made using the same tooling and processes that the “genuine” ones are, are probably packed in the same boxes, from the same printers and will likely be in all respects indistinguishable from those bought from the Dapol website or factory shop.  I wonder how Dapol can say that they won’t be eligible for warranty, as they won’t be able to distinguish such products from those they have sold any more than the customer can (except by the receipt, perhaps).

 

The items in question are most probably traded via the factory back door, and will certainly negatively affect Dapol’s profitability, so there are good moral and practical arguments for not buying them, I suspect “fraudulently sold” would probably be a better description.  I do hope that Dapol are able to close the leak, I doubt they will recoup their losses.

 

Underlining mine, copied from Simond's post. He speculated and presented a hypothesis for the issue flagged by Dapol. Speculating may be unhelpful and wrong, but in that case most of the thread is in the same boat (including me). The post was very clear it was offering a possibility (one which I suspect is shared by many others, it's the most likely explanation I can think of) and offered opinion based on that explanation. It did not claim to be making a definitive statement.

I did read what he said and the two of you are making assumptions, about how these fakes were made.

 

Just making it up as you go along! Unless you have specific knowledge.

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Just making it up as you go along! Unless you have specific knowledge.

You are right, it is a theory. But it's a better one than the idea someone has gone to the expense of tooling a copy of something thats already sold through 2 batches, to flog at a price that won't remotely cover the costs incurred.

 

Everyone makes it up as they go along - all that varies is the output!

Edited April 11 by Hal Nail

[Jon Harbour]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Just making it up as you go along! Unless you have specific knowledge.

 

It is the most plausible theory. Yes of course nobody an be certain, but it is much more likely that some enterprising manager at the relevant factory has 'accidentally' overproduced and the excess to Dapol's order has somehow 'mysteriously' disappeared from the factory.

[Simond]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

So absolutely, you are making the claim that these 'fakes' are as good or the same as the real ones supplied officially via Dapol.

 

So I ask again, how do you KNOW this is true, or are you making up what you want to believe to be true?

 

Fakes come in all 'standards' for want of a better term, from indistinguishable to most people, to absolute crap. One thing for sure, any warranty won't be honoured by the real business behind genuine products.

firstly, I said “I don’t know”.

 

Secondly I don’t have any skin in the game, I have no shares in Dapol, and I’m not involved in grey importing of anything, still less model trains.

 

Thirdly, I expressed an opinion, which might be no better or worse than yours, but 

 

Fourthly, I’ve been involved in international manufacturing business for forty-odd years so I’ve a bit of experience of precisely this sort of thing happening.

 

Fifth, I suspect the investment cost of producing even a poor fake would entirely rule out any other manufacturing route.

 

and so finally, I outlined what I considered to be the most likely scenario.

 

But if you have a better explanation, do share…

 

Turning to the warranty, if one is prepared to purchase stolen goods (for that is what they are, if my suggested scenario is correct) then I suspect it’s trivial to commit fraud on the warranty.  Buy an identical one from a UK vendor, return the failed one with the UK receipt.  Presuming one is sufficient, sell the extra on eBay.

 

And opening every box on arrival in the uk, and applying a sticky serial number?  Sorry, that’s laughable.

Edited April 11 by Simond

[kevinlms]

5 minutes ago, Simond said:

firstly, I said “I don’t know”.

 

Secondly I don’t have any skin in the game, I have no shares in Dapol, and I’m not involved in grey importing of anything, still less model trains.

 

Thirdly, I expressed an opinion, which might be no better or worse than yours, but 

 

Fourthly, I’ve been involved in international manufacturing business for forty-odd years so I’ve a bit of experience of precisely this sort of thing happening.

 

Fifth, I suspect the investment cost of producing even a poor fake would entirely rule out any other manufacturing route.

 

and so finally, I outlined what I considered to be the most likely scenario.

 

But if you have a better explanation, do share…

 

Turning to the warranty, if one is prepared to purchase stolen goods (for that is what they are, if my suggested scenario is correct) then I suspect it’s trivial to commit fraud on the warranty.  Buy an identical one from a UK vendor, return the failed one with the UK receipt.  Presuming one is sufficient, sell the extra on eBay.

 

And opening every box on arrival in the uk, and applying a sticky serial number?  Sorry, that’s laughable.

Where did I say that your theory is wrong? I asked how did you know that they were from the same production line? I've previously suggested that if extra models are made, the quality is likely to drop.

 

Fact is we don't know for sure and endless speculation is the result. Remember, you claimed it was all excess production, not me.

[kevinlms]

27 minutes ago, Jon Harbour said:

 

It is the most plausible theory. Yes of course nobody an be certain, but it is much more likely that some enterprising manager at the relevant factory has 'accidentally' overproduced and the excess to Dapol's order has somehow 'mysteriously' disappeared from the factory.

But it is a theory, something has happened at the factory and presumably Dapol, won't be dealing with them any more.

Probably they don't care anyway. Plently of other western companies wanting plastic goods made at a cheap price. Later they will find out like Dapol, that there is a sting in the tail - expect your trading name to be undermined.

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

These days people tend to forget one of the attractions of containerization was to reduce pilferage across the transport chain.

They obviously had never been to Egypt then, and the staff canal tax.

 

 

 

Edited April 11 by adb968008

[kevinlms]

On 08/04/2024 at 04:36, Simond said:

 

As I said, “except by receipt , of course”.

 

 My point was that Dapol’s announcement stated that these products would not be warrantable, I merely said that they couldn’t tell the difference.  
 

Furthermore,  eBay does have an effective customer complaints procedure, presuming the seller has not vanished.  The majority of returns may not go back to Dapol, but of course, some may.

You misquoted me earlier. I was asking how you know that Dapol couldn't tell the difference. What makes you say that Dapol can't tell the difference? Surely anyone getting a product made, would be able to tell if not one of their genuine ones?

 

I certainly wouldn't rely on eBay complaints procedure, it only seems to work if goods arrive broken or not at all. If fakes die after 3 months, what is eBay going to do?

[G-BOAF]

If they are not part of an authorised production batch, distributed from the factory by Dapol, they they are fake products. Simple as. 

I do like the idea of a secure hologram sticker being applied to product/boxes by Dapol rather than the factory. I guess making these stickers in the UK will be the only solution otherwise there could be a black market in Chinese production of those!

 

Interesting new item today about Fake stamps. With quotes from Ebay and Amazon that fake items are not tolerated.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13294737/China-flooding-Britain-fake-stamps-rogue-firms-land-thousands-innocent-British-victims-5-penalties.html

So all Dapol has to do is raise it with the online market place, stating clearly that they are the manufacturers, and that there are no authorised Dapol Retailers in China, that they have not supplied any of the production batches to suppliers in China, and that therefore these models are unauthorised copies (fakes), or at very lease cannot be regarded as new given, if they are genuine, they will have been already purchased from an authorised retailer (i.e. are second-hand), and not covered by warranty of OEM.

Edited April 11 by G-BOAF

[Izzy]

Immaterial of the where and how as to the origin of these goods it’s down the road where problems for the unsuspecting could lay and with it Dapol’s overall reputation. The original purchaser of these will know where they bought them. But once sold on, as some might well be, then the subsequent owner will not believe them to be any thing other than genuine  Dapol. There lies the issues that could arise. Perception’s of quality etc. complaints of poor performance, who knows. Cheap knock-off clones is bad enough with small items such as TP servos sold in large volumes for example, but worse for a smaller company with a more expensive product. 

[adb968008]

Tbh i’m for @maico suggestion.

 

The thing I find odd is neither the Dapol model or the Murphys one have been made for quite some time.

 

So for these two appear now, only has two options…

1. recently made

2. are years old from the last batch.

 

ive struggled with why a factory would knowingly make more (option 1), it would destroy their relationship, not just with Dapol, but any other company that recognises that they made that product.?.Further why would Dapol hold back on naming and shaming the factory…

This isnt the first time this sort of thing has happened, its happened at least a dozen, in different forms in different countries models… though most times the box changes, if there is a box.

 

So I go back to old stock… but couldnt reconcile pallets of  “hundreds” hanging around for years… warehouses cost money.

 

But the thought of a few dozen assorted rejects sitting in the back of a warehouse finding their way out of the door and to some wholesaler, and then have a dozen or so chancers listing them on ebay looking for a bite and rushing back to the shop to buy and post it some buys it makes a ton of sense.

 

The proof will be how quick they dissapear… these arent really “hot” demand items and the price isnt cheap… they could hang for a while.. so if theres hundreds a price war will follow. If theres only a few in reality, they will seemingly just dissapear as each one sold takes 10 sellers down at a time.

The saving grace here is the Dapol ones arent the highest demand items..they were recently heavily discounted. Murphys maybe higher demand, but a smaller, maybe already sated market.

 

What this isnt, is the £20-50 unboxed Bachmann factory samples that streamed out on ebay in hundreds from Taiwan 10 years or so back, or the liliput Kreigsloks on kowloon market for c£10 way back 20 years ago. Ali-express lists some nice, but unfortunate double US stacks in HO, as does some European gondolas and some Norwegian box vans.. those really are knock offs, and come unboxed, cheap and oodles of them.

 

Edited April 11 by adb968008

[G-BOAF]

if they are factory/QC rejects, another option would be that Dapol insists all rejected models come to them (after all they have paid for a full batch, which includes an allowance for rejects. It can then use them for spares (the good parts) and/or sells the bodies as seconds (which Dapol has of course done with the incorrect DRS 68 bodies). This would prevent such complete items entering the customer market later.

[adb968008]

20 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

if they are factory/QC rejects, another option would be that Dapol insists all rejected models come to them (after all they have paid for a full batch, which includes an allowance for rejects. It can then use them for spares (the good parts) and/or sells the bodies as seconds (which Dapol has of course done with the incorrect DRS 68 bodies). This would prevent such complete items entering the customer market later.

There are other reasons legit ones didnt make it here..

Full pallet, full container, the factory could have over estimated their own failure rate and made too many, any number of honest reasons.

 

But warehousing costs money, takes space.. 4 years is a long time to hang on..of course it could be a disagreement between the warehouse and the factory that saw them spill out… 

 

Theres hundreds of possible reasons, not all nefarious, but unfortunate.

 

They will either soak up if theres a few, and dissappear, or there will be a price war if theres hundreds.. that i’m confident…. They arent high demand models, though i reckon the murphys ones will go first.

 

 

 

Edited April 11 by adb968008

[john new]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

There are other reasons legit ones didnt make it here..

Full pallet, full container, the factory could have over estimated their own failure rate and made too many, any number of honest reasons.

 

But warehousing costs money, takes space.. 4 years is a long time to hang on..of course it could be a disagreement between the warehouse and the factory that saw them spill out… 

 

Theres hundreds of possible reasons, not all nefarious, but unfortunate.

 

They will either soak up quick if theres a few, and dissappear, or there will be a price war if theres hundreds.. that i’m confident…. They arent high demand models, though i reckon the murphys ones will go first.

 

 

 

Also add - 

 

Warehouse detailed stock check with new staff finds the mislabelled/misplaced lost container etc., having done stock checks in the past where lost stuff has turned up (and deficiencies too) it does happen.

[jjb1970]

There are all sorts of possible explanations, and as adb968008 points, not all would be down to nefarious deeds by Chinese scam artists. 

 

On the question of outsourcing, none of these companies is forced to outsource. They could raise the capital to invest in manufacturing complex models, train staff to develop the necessary manufacturing skills across the whole process and sell them at a price to make it financially viable. Become genuine manufacturers, Dapol already do some manufacture of simple items. Good luck with that. The reason companies accept risks of outsourcing is because without it they wouldn't have a viable business model as a provider of new complex models. And despite the occasional falling out their reputations as provider's of high quality detailed models is down to what their manufacturing partners are capable of delivering. 

[adb968008]

I thought we werent supposed to name them… ^^^^^
 

😀

[kevinlms]

15 minutes ago, john new said:

Also add - 

 

Warehouse detailed stock check with new staff finds the mislabelled/misplaced lost container etc., having done stock checks in the past where lost stuff has turned up (and deficiencies too) it does happen.

Whereas the warehouse ought to have advised the real owner Dapol, and asked what they wanted done with them.

 

Possible answers are yes, (Dapol) we will pay a certain price for them. Or two, destroy them.

I'm sure Dapol didn't tell them to sell them out of the back door!