Regional Railways DMU workings & formations

[keefer]

I think the biggest issue with combining Pacers and Sprinters was remembering there was a Pacer on the back when driving from the Sprinter cab.

Sprinters were 90/100mph but the Pacers were only 75mph!

[Edwin_m]

3 hours ago, keefer said:

I think the biggest issue with combining Pacers and Sprinters was remembering there was a Pacer on the back when driving from the Sprinter cab.

Sprinters were 90/100mph but the Pacers were only 75mph!

150s, 153s, 155s and 156s are 75mph too.  

[keefer]

1 hour ago, Edwin_m said:

150s, 153s, 155s and 156s are 75mph too.  

My mistake, I assumed they were 90 (certainly the 155/156) with the 158s being 100mph

[Mol_PMB]

43 minutes ago, keefer said:

My mistake, I assumed they were 90 (certainly the 155/156) with the 158s being 100mph

158s are 90mph max, the other 15x are 75 as noted above.

Way out of the OP's time period but in Northern days there were a group of Pacers limited to 60 (rather than 75) owing to transmission issues. They were indistinguishable from the others apart from a notice in the cab, and very often ended up getting hauled at 75 or occasionally even more. Usually when there was a driver swap en route with the other unit leading.

[keefer]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

158s are 90mph max, the other 15x are 75 as noted above.

Way out of the OP's time period but in Northern days there were a group of Pacers limited to 60 (rather than 75) owing to transmission issues. They were indistinguishable from the others apart from a notice in the cab, and very often ended up getting hauled at 75 or occasionally even more. Usually when there was a driver swap en route with the other unit leading.

That's maybe what I was thinking of (probably read it on RMweb).

Just seemed odd that the units on modern bogies had the same max. speed as those on a glorified 4-whl wagon underframe!

[jpendle]

8 minutes ago, keefer said:

Just seemed odd that the units on modern bogies had the same max. speed as those on a glorified 4-whl wagon underframe!

Possibly because they spent most of their time off the mainlines where track speeds are lower.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[adb968008]

 

8 hours ago, Wheatley said:

155s - although the RRNE Random Unit Generator* couid have its moments, the 155s were paid for by WYPTE so in the early days rarely worked off their core Calder Valley route unless the train plan had gone completely to hell.

 

156s - ER policy was that 2nd Gen units were not route cleared unless there was a need to route clear them, so these were quite restricted at first too. They were not cleared between Barnsley and Huddersfield for example, because those were 14x diagrams. Until Traffic Manager Hanton nicked one off a TP service one day to mitigate two consecutive 142 failures, and it rolled up at Penistone. After a brief conversation with Control (who had no idea it was there, Mr Hanton working on the 'forgiveness rather than permission' basis) the driver was instructed to continue to Barnsley, enter Silkstone Common  platform at dead slow and report any impacts. After which they were deemed route cleared :-)

 

*(Completely outclassed by the later Northern Random Unit Generator which ensure that my commute from 2004 onwards was rarely the same type on two consecutive days).

I saw all the wypte ones, on the left side of the penines.

 

Preston, Bolton, Salford, Victoria..

 

The 158/9’s started life on Transpennine services to Liverpool until the 3 cars arrived.

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

I saw all the wypte ones, on the left side of the penines.

 

Preston, Bolton, Salford, Victoria..

Yes, they were mostly diagrammed on York - Manchester (and beyond) services via the Calder Valley, they weren't confined to West Yorkshire but they did tend to stick to the core route. For quite a while WYPTE kept tabs and got shirty if they wondered off up towards Scarborough (for example) or Leeds-  Sheffield despite York and Leeds crews having traction knowledge. 

 

Later on they could go anywhere and these days they're all based at Hull !

 

WYPTE also paid for the 144 centre cars but had less say in where they went as their bit had to go where the 2/3 they didn't own went. 

[adb968008]

15 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Yes, they were mostly diagrammed on York - Manchester (and beyond) services via the Calder Valley, they weren't confined to West Yorkshire but they did tend to stick to the core route. For quite a while WYPTE kept tabs and got shirty if they wondered off up towards Scarborough (for example) or Leeds-  Sheffield despite York and Leeds crews having traction knowledge. 

 

Later on they could go anywhere and these days they're all based at Hull !

 

WYPTE also paid for the 144 centre cars but had less say in where they went as their bit had to go where the 2/3 they didn't own went. 

Do you where the Bolton lines were heading ? I’m guessing Blackpool from WYorks somewhere ? I only ever went towards Manchester on these.

 

I saw several at Preston heading to Blackpool but guessing they were via Copy Pit.

 

We got regular 155’s too for a while, always 2 car though, never seen a 4 car 155.. I guess it occured somewhere.

Bolton

 

Had a funny turn on one of these once, leaving Bolton, I went to the loo, came out after Farnworth tunnel to see the exterior door was wide open, the track wizzing past. Wandered down found the guard who looked at it, made an understatement comment, pressed the button to shut it and locked it out of use.

 

Then I woke up one day they were all gone.

 

 

Edited April 14 by adb968008

[Wheatley]

14 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Do you where the Bolton lines were heading ? I’m guessing Blackpool from WYorks somewhere ?

York/Leeds - Blackpool I expect, but in theory they should have gone via Bradford Interchange. My recollection of exactly which services went which way is waining a bit after all these years !

Edited April 14 by Wheatley

[adb968008]

One thing I do recall was initilly 142’s didnt pair with anything but 142’s…. They originally had different gearing and transmission and drivers used to drive them like traditional dmu’s… rev, pause, gear, rev…repeat…

 

it was only later I seem to recall them pairing with sprinters and just going high revs for torque just like the sprinters.

 

Mid 80’s ive a few pictures of pairs of pacers, but by 90’s it was a mix of whatever pairings, that persisted until 2020.

 

Edited April 14 by adb968008

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, jpendle said:

Possibly because they spent most of their time off the mainlines where track speeds are lower.

 

Regards,

 

John P

Pacers were definitely fun on the leyland to Salford via Bolton stretches…. Like a seesaw ride, with added extra bounce, not to add the track joint went through the seats and your spine… they got line speed there ok.

 

 

apologies my pics are grainy, I was a skint teenager, s/h camera, out of date film and it took me a decade to afford to process them….why ?

 

Well my dad gave me the £3 odd for the film, and the £4 odd for processing… but then i’d buy the 75p out of date film and use the rest to travel… as I wasnt supposed to be going beyond Bolton… infact I made Exeter once, Tonbridge another.. central wales was memorable..

 

 

all before I was 15… The best part it wasnt until I’d safely graduated, got a job and left home before I shared with him my pictures, by then it was definitely too late to be told off.

 

Edited April 14 by adb968008

[phil_sutters]

This looks like two 155s coupled together on a Hereford to Oxford service in 1991 and another pair on a Cardiff to Penzance service in 1988.

Edited April 14 by phil_sutters

[russ p]

When I was driver on Central trains at Norwich we had a driver bring a 170 from Nottingham,  came down the ECML at 100mph and on changing ends at Ely he thought where the f##k did that come from on seeing a 156 coupled to the rear!

Seemed no one told him. It drove to Norwich with no issues 

[The Pilotman]

9 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

This looks like two 155s coupled together on a Hereford to Oxford service in 1991 and another pair on a Cardiff to Penzance service in 1988.

 

The 155 was a two car unit from new (as shown in both your pictures). Most became class 153s later when they were converted to have a driving cab at both ends to operate as a single coach unit. 

[Wheatley]

On 14/04/2024 at 22:32, adb968008 said:

Do you where the Bolton lines were heading ? I’m guessing Blackpool from WYorks somewhere ? I only ever went towards Manchester on these.

 

Further to last, the collective opinion of the Northern Old Gits (standing around gassing while we wait for our laptops to update themselves again) Collective this morning was that any  (Edit - RRNE/WYPTE) 155s on the Bolton Corridor early on would have been diversions with a route conductor on board. Leeds (we think) and York crews (definitely) didn't sign Bolton at that date, and no drivers on the NW had traction knowledge. Such diversions may not have been uncommon depending on what was going on engineering-wise of course. 

 

Using them for other than York - Bradford - Man Vic - Blackpool services definitely needed the Duty Control Manager's permission.  

 

The doors were problematic at first, at one stage they were all (?) out of traffic awaiting Leyland fixing a problem with microswitches I believe. They were set up on depots which were largely straight and level - once out in the wild on canted platforms the downhill doors didn't close enough to trip the door proving relay, and the uphill doors didn't open enough to untrip it. Or something.  

Edited April 16 by Wheatley

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, Wheatley said:

 

Further to last, the collective opinion of the Northern Old Gits (standing around gassing while we wait for our laptops to update themselves again) Collective this morning was that any 155s on the Bolton Corridor early on would have been diversions with a route conductor on board. Leeds (we think) and York crews (definitely) didn't sign Bolton at that date, and no drivers on the NW had traction knowledge. Such diversions may not have been uncommon depending on what was going on engineering-wise of course. 

 

Using them for other than York - Bradford - Man Vic - Blackpool services definitely needed the Duty Control Manager's permission.  

 

The doors were problematic at first, at one stage they were all (?) out of traffic awaiting Leyland fixing a problem with microswitches I believe. They were set up on depots which were largely straight and level - once out in the wild on canted platforms the downhill doors didn't close enough to trip the door proving relay, and the uphill doors didn't open enough to untrip it. Or something.  

Could they have been Longsight crews ?

 

155’s were doing Manchester - Cardiffs for a while.

 

Heres a wypte on a Liverpool turn, it came down miles platting and crossed over infront of the 142..

 

 

As mentioned earlier the 158/9’s started on Liverpools too…

 

here is 158905 doing the same thing.

 

After the 158’s came I really didnt see many 155’s after in Manchester, Iirc occasionally in the bay platforms nearer to the Bury line side. (The main ones becoming 153’s and wyptes ones went more the Blackburn route).

 

What I never saw on the lancashire side of the pennines was a class 143, and class 144’s were very very rare.. occasionally Manchester.. and later Lancaster via Settle, though pictures in Preston exist, so it happened on occasions.

 

interesting memory lane for me this thread.

Edited April 15 by adb968008

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Could they have been Longsight crews ?

 

155’s were doing Manchester - Cardiffs for a while.

 

Heres a wypte on a Liverpool turn, it came down miles platting and crossed over infront of the 142..

 

 

As mentioned earlier the 158/9’s started on Liverpools too…

 

here is 158905 doing the same thing.

 

After the 158’s came I really didnt see many 155’s after in Manchester, Iirc occasionally in the bay platforms nearer to the Bury line side. (The main ones becoming 153’s and wyptes ones went more the Blackburn route).

 

What I never saw on the lancashire side of the pennines was a class 143, and class 144’s were very very rare.. occasionally Manchester.. and later Lancaster via Settle, though pictures in Preston exist, so it happened on occasions.

 

interesting memory lane for me this thread.

Nearly-155s (i.e. 2x153) are a staple of the Manchester-Cardiff services in 2024!

144s were regulars on the Leeds-Heysham boat train for a while, again in more recent times.

 

As a child I remember the 155s replacing the 33s on the Bristol-Bath axis (my gran lived in Keynsham) so they were presumably on Cardiff-Weymouth or similar.

 

 

 

[bécasse]

20 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

As a child I remember the 155s replacing the 33s on the Bristol-Bath axis (my gran lived in Keynsham) so they were presumably on Cardiff-Weymouth or similar.

 

They worked the Cardiff-Bristol-Portsmouth/Brighton services too.

[Edwin_m]

11 minutes ago, bécasse said:

They worked the Cardiff-Bristol-Portsmouth/Brighton services too.

They would have appeared there first as that was an "Express" route considered deserving of the (relatively) better quality units.  When 158s arrived they pushed 155s and 156s onto other secondary Regional routes.  

[EddieK]

On 14/04/2024 at 23:08, adb968008 said:

One thing I do recall was initilly 142’s didnt pair with anything but 142’s…. They originally had different gearing and transmission and drivers used to drive them like traditional dmu’s… rev, pause, gear, rev…repeat…

 

it was only later I seem to recall them pairing with sprinters and just going high revs for torque just like the sprinters.

 

Mid 80’s ive a few pictures of pairs of pacers, but by 90’s it was a mix of whatever pairings, that persisted until 2020.

 

When new, the 142s (at least) had Leyland engines and Self Destructing Gears transmissions. The driver wouldn't have had any input to the gear changes, there would have been an electronic brain to cut the engine revs and change gear. Probably a similar system to that fitted to Leyland Buses.

[pheaton]

The other one i havent seen mentioned...is in the early years of the 158s, they very very frequently seen with a sprinter attached...and the reason was that because they didn't have tread brakes, dirt on the wheels would build up and insulate them from track circuits, so a 15x was normally added to formation because they had tread brakes. 158s were eventually modified with a tread brake on the outer wheelset of each car to resolve this problem.

[Wheatley]

40 minutes ago, pheaton said:

The other one i havent seen mentioned...is in the early years of the 158s, they very very frequently seen with a sprinter attached...and the reason was that because they didn't have tread brakes, dirt on the wheels would build up and insulate them from track circuits, so a 15x was normally added to formation because they had tread brakes. 158s were eventually modified with a tread brake on the outer wheelset of each car to resolve this problem.

The 156/158 combo was a short term autumn-only arrangement (unless the 156 was deputising for a failed 158). The 158s have scrubber blocks fitted rather than a tread brake. 

[steve1023]

I remember the summer ‘88 timetable change when the 155s replaced the class 33s. The through summer Saturday BTN - CDF on a few occasions had 4x155 in multiple. I caught it on one occasion. ISTR it lasted only for maybe 3 or 4 weekends though before being reduced to the more normal 2 or 4 car sets. 
 

 

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, pheaton said:

The other one i havent seen mentioned...is in the early years of the 158s, they very very frequently seen with a sprinter attached...and the reason was that because they didn't have tread brakes, dirt on the wheels would build up and insulate them from track circuits, so a 15x was normally added to formation because they had tread brakes. 158s were eventually modified with a tread brake on the outer wheelset of each car to resolve this problem.

Winter 1990 in Scotland they made combos of a single 156 and a single 158 car on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness services, the units ran round using the triangle at Inverness to put the 156 facing south again, as they had snow ploughs and the 158’s did not.