Imaginary Heritage Railways

[Murican]

An offshot of some discussions I had on the imaginary locomotives thread. This time, I'm taking inspiration to write up ideas for alternate heritage railroads, and what their existence would likely mean for certain railways.

[Murican]

For example, one idea I had was for the S&DJR between Bath Green Park and Templecombe to survive as a tourist railway at the cost of the East Somerset Railway existing as it does in real life.

[Northmoor]

Bath to Templecombe is a pretty ambitious preserved railway!  But the clue is in the word "imaginary" I suppose.  Consider this:

• The S&DRHT at Midsomer Norton wouldn't exist;
• The S&DRT would never have moved from Radstock to Washford in the early 70s,
• The North Dorset Railway at Shillingstone might not have got off the ground,
• The Gartell Light Railway probably wouldn't either,
• if your scheme had taken over the railway soon after closure, there would likely have been no interest in what became the Avon Valley Railway at Bitton.  

That's quite an impact.

 

If the original Kingsbridge branch scheme had been successful it's likely the Dart Valley wouldn't have been created.

 

Not quite the same thing, but there would be no Whitrope Summit Heritage Centre if the Border Union Railway had taken over the Waverley Route in 1970.  There are many preserved railways which took over lines closed to passengers or freight after 1969-70, which had they survived much longer, would have survived into an era when traffic was increasing a rail closures became politically unacceptable.  The Swanage and Mid-Hants both fit into this category.

[KeithMacdonald]

Part of it did survive.

 

https://sdjr.co.uk/

 

 

[jcm@gwr]

Interestingly, along very similar lines, we (Stevenage & District MRC) are taking our small, portable, 0 gauge layout

to it's first exhibition* this weekend.

It was an unfinished shunting layout that was donated to the club, we decided that it could represent a fictional

heritage centre. We have named it 'Lea Valley Railway Centre' as a nod to our origins (we started out as the Lea

Valley MRC in the 60's)

The reasoning behind a fictional heritage centre is that we can run anything, so it's not dependant on the same

old members bringing their own stock, or relying on club stock, we are being careful with the back-scene, so we

can move it geographically, including the European and American continents!

 

*West Essex Modelrail ( iwemrc.org.uk )

Edited April 24 by jcm@gwr
more info

[DCB]

Bere Alston to Tavistock would be interesting, especially the Tavistock end high on the hill above the town.    BR connection available at Bere Alston. 

[Murican]

5 hours ago, Northmoor said:

• if your scheme had taken over the railway soon after closure, there would likely have been no interest in what became the Avon Valley Railway at Bitton.  

 

Well I did imagine the Bristol - Bath Green Park link staying to eventually become a suburban line for Bristol.

[Dunalastair]

More like 'stillborn' rather than 'imaginary', but when the Callander & Oban was closed, I seem to remember that there was a proposal under the auspices of the SRPS to retain the Dunblane to Callander section as a heritage railway. Sadly, by the time we moved to the Royal Burgh, the railway was being demolished.

 

This had a personal connection in that I travelled to school from Dunblane to Callander by school bus in the early seventies. Had the heritage railway succeeded, then my daily journey might have been by rail rather than road. The long walks to and from the stations compared to a nearby bus stop would not have been welcome in a cold, dark Perthshire winter, but my homework might have been more legible if done on a train than on a Lodekka. When the C&OR closed, then many of my schoolfriends had to stay in hostels during the week as the bus journey from places like Killin took too long for a daily journey.

 

This was I think when SRPS had their base at Falkirk (well before Bo'ness) which might have relocated to the original DD&CR yard at Callander. I have never heard why the proposal foundered, though lack of finance seems a likely cause.

[TomCrewe]

Don't forget that sometimes Heritage Loco's take to the main line too. I have seen the Flying Scotchman on the Chester line in Crewe heading for Holyhead.

[adb968008]

Sutton to Epsom downs was once considered as a preserved railway, Sutton council even bought a loco for it.

 

the line didnt close in the end.

 

I always thought the Grassington branch could be a preserved railway, from Skipton.

 

The ELR from Bolton to Castleton may have been a bit more commercially attractive too, with some fascinating viaducts.

 

Then of course Dinting Railway Centre running to Penistone :-)

[Murican]

Another musing that crossed my mind was what things would be like if the Padarn Railway had been preserved as it originally was instead of being turned into the Llanberis Lake Railway (I'm from the states, so forgive me if I spelled that wrong).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The GNR's Hatfield Luton and Dunstable would be a gem. Really attractive countryside running through an SSSI woodland and along the Lea valley via the Parks of Brocket Hall and Luton Hoo; with mainline connections to the ECML and MML, (and potentially the WCML if the LNWR branch from Leighton to an end on junction at Dunstable was also preserved). Present day, close proximity to the M25, M1 and A1M, and an international airport, in an area seriously short of preserved steam railway operation, and abundantly equipped with a population possessed of money to burn on entertainment.

[Captain Kernow]

17 hours ago, Murican said:

Well I did imagine the Bristol - Bath Green Park link staying to eventually become a suburban line for Bristol.

Perhaps it might have become part of the 'Avon Metro' that was much vaunted in the early 1980s, if only the local authorities of the time had been able to conceive of any kind of celebration in a brewery...

 

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The GNR's Hatfield Luton and Dunstable would be a gem. Really attractive countryside running through an SSSI woodland and along the Lea valley via the Parks of Brocket Hall and Luton Hoo; with mainline connections to the ECML and MML, (and potentially the WCML if the LNWR branch from Leighton to an end on junction at Dunstable was also preserved). Present day, close proximity to the M25, M1 and A1M, and an international airport, in an area seriously short of preserved steam railway operation, and abundantly equipped with a population possessed of money to burn on entertainment.

Mmmm.  Attractive at the Eastern end up to round Luton Hoo, then it rapidly goes downhill.  I can't imagine too many would pay to travel between Luton and Dunstable, for pleasure.  Interestingly  neither proximity to a large local population or connection to the national rail network, contribute greatly to the number of passengers carried on a preserved railway.

 

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I always thought the Grassington branch could be a preserved railway, from Skipton.

I believe what became the Yorkshire Dales Railway at Embsay, originally had this intention, but the line remained open for the stone traffic, so Embsay to Bolton Abbey would not exist.

 

14 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

More like 'stillborn' rather than 'imaginary', but when the Callander & Oban was closed, I seem to remember that there was a proposal under the auspices of the SRPS to retain the Dunblane to Callander section as a heritage railway. Sadly, by the time we moved to the Royal Burgh, the railway was being demolished.

 

This had a personal connection in that I travelled to school from Dunblane to Callander by school bus in the early seventies. Had the heritage railway succeeded, then my daily journey might have been by rail rather than road. The long walks to and from the stations compared to a nearby bus stop would not have been welcome in a cold, dark Perthshire winter, but my homework might have been more legible if done on a train than on a Lodekka. When the C&OR closed, then many of my schoolfriends had to stay in hostels during the week as the bus journey from places like Killin took too long for a daily journey.

Coincidentally my Mother took exactly the same journey to school in the 1950s, but by train.  It was a real loss; Dunblane - Callander and possibly onto Strathyre would have been a spectacular steam railway, within easy travel of Edinburgh and Glasgow (as demonstrated by the number of day trippers in the area at weekends).  As you suggest, it would replace the B&KR and possibly the Strathspey Railway; wasn't this formed by a group of members who wanted the SRPS to locate their operations further North?

[Guest]

As it's local to me, the Chester to Denbigh route would have been a good call, as would the stretch from Rhyl right the way through to Corwen, where you could have even linked up with the Llangollen Railway! Well, if only what may have been....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

12 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Interestingly  neither proximity to a large local population or connection to the national rail network, contribute greatly to the number of passengers carried on a preserved railway.

That's not been the opinion of the KWVR team I have spoken to (now a decade past admittedly). I live roughly 24 miles North of Trafalgar Square, and the KWVR is my conveniently accessible preservation outfit: ten minute walk to station, pick up an IC225, St Evengage - Leeds, local train to Keighley, KWVR to Oxenhope, three minute walk to my late parent's door: and return. The best of the current network at the time, and steam traction, for a grand day out.

[Northmoor]

9 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

That's not been the opinion of the KWVR team I have spoken to (now a decade past admittedly). I live roughly 24 miles North of Trafalgar Square, and the KWVR is my conveniently accessible preservation outfit: ten minute walk to station, pick up an IC225, St Evengage - Leeds, local train to Keighley, KWVR to Oxenhope, three minute walk to my late parent's door: and return. The best of the current network at the time, and steam traction, for a grand day out.

I don't doubt it's convenient, but what proportion of the KWVR's passengers arrive by rail (happy to be proved wrong)?  Even the SVR with it's connection at Kidderminster, used to reckon less than 10% of theirs did. 

It's distorted by the running to Whitby now, but even before that was introduced I would guess that the proportion of passengers arriving on the NYMR via the Middlesbrough-Whitby train service, was trivial. 

[RichardT]

9 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I would guess that the proportion of passengers arriving on the NYMR via the Middlesbrough-Whitby train service, was trivial.

Yes it was and is, but whether that illustrates a general principle about mainline/heritage rail connections or whether it’s because the Middlesbrough-Whitby train service makes “vestigial” look like a synonym for “cornucopia” is very much up for debate.

 

RichardT

Edited April 26 by RichardT

[CKPR]

How about modelling the abandoned or at least proposed  commercial operations mooted in the late 1960s for such lines as the Hayling Island and the Waverley ?

[Martino]

Assuming that the track layout of Windsor and Eton Central had survived intact, and that the Slough engine shed had survived, then a heritage line running from the south side bays at Slough to Windsor would have been superb. Connection to national rail at Slough, close to London.  A full scale GW terminus in a major tourist town, and a GW engine shed.

[Murican]

I wrote up a fictionalized history of what a S&D Heritage railway could look like:

 

Despite a tepid reputation during its time as an revenue rail line, being called the "Slow & Dirty" by detractors, the Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway had endeared itself to both locals and rail enthusiasts with the unique variety of traction on its rails, the wonderful landscapes in southwest England or its eccentricities. This meant that by the time it was listed for closure by BR even as the 1950s Oil Crisis finally died down, enthusiasts almost immediately pounced to turn the line into a heritage railway. Among those were MP Robert Adley, who had already helped save Bath Green Park Station as part of the Bristol Suburban Rail Society [1]. This would prove a big help as Adley was able to assist with saving the yards and sheds at Bath. However, the Somerset & Dorest Preservation Trust soon realized that keeping the entire line active would be impractical, and so they settled to an initial line from Bath Green Park to Masbury, with preparations being made to open as far as Templecombe in steps.

Starting excursion operations in 1967, the line started off small with LMS 4F #44123, and three of the ubiquitous Bulleid coaches. Despite these humble beginnings, the excursions from Bath Green Park to Masbury were successful enough that the railway bought another two Bulleid coaches to meet with the demand, and the line was extended from Masbury to Cole. However, five full coaches did prove to be a bit much for a 4F on the infamously steep line, and the S&D went looking for a larger engine in 1969. Their call was soon answered by famed painter and rail enthusiast David Sheppard, who himself had been looking for a place to store the two BR Standards he was able to negotiate the purchase of: 4-6-0 #75029 "The Green Knight" and 9F #92203 "The Black Prince" [2]. It was a deal that the S&D couldn't refuse, further helped by the fact that the classes they belonged to had been staples of the S&D during the 1950s and 60s. As part of accomodating for these new engines, the S&DHR carved out part of the old goods yard to build a turntable large enough to accomodate locomotives like The Black Prince. The next two years would see another few locomotives purchased straight from British Railways, among them Standard 5 #73050 and West Country Pacific #34039 "Boscastle" [3].

1972 would prove to be a milestone year for the S&DHR, as they finally reached the goal of reactivating the line to Templecombe and its connection to the West of England Main Line. However, this would not come without a fair number of changes to the yards and North Station. The most important change would be the replacement of the original turntable with one that could handle larger locomotives for the trip back to Bath Green Park, as well as the inclusion of a passing siding to let locomotives run around their trains. These upgrades were carried out over the course of the year, with work being finished in 1974. Also during 1974 the railway would acquire more locomotives and rolling stock, among them the grand prize of S&DJR #88, one of the original 7F locomotives.

1976 would see the beginning of the railway's most ambitious project yet. The restoration of the branch line from Evercreech Junction to Highbridge and its connection with the Bristol & Exter mainline, on to the coast at Burham-On-Sea. Although able to initially reach Highbridge, the leg to Burnham was found to be in a state of decline and in need of renovation that was carried out over the next year and a half. The line to Burnham would see its first excursion from Templecombe in June 1978, with #44123 at the head of the first excursion.

While the line has not extended beyond Templecombe in the years since, the S&D still has the idea on the backburner. Particular focus is on collaborating with the Spettisbury Railway, a shorter line which runs industrial tank engines from Broadstone to the namesake town. Some feasibility studies have already determined some of the steps that would be neccessary for reunification, the most notably of these being the reconstruction of the viaduct through Blandford, which was partly demolished due to neglect making the crumbling structure a borderline public hazard [4]. However, the high costs of this has meant that the chances of this happening are unlikely for at least the forseeable future, although the restoration of the Shillingstone station does show that progress takes many forms. Nonetheless, the idea of restoring the entire Bath to Bournemouth line has led to people raising the idea to bring back the Pines Express to its original route.

In the meantime, the S&DHR is praised by the public as one of England's most cerished heritage railways. Excursions from Templecombe north to Bath Green Park then Mangotsfield keep the railway plenty busy, with the line to Highbridge being popular in its own right. The locomotive collection is loved for being an immaculate celebration of the line's mixed Southern, Midland, and slight Western Region heritage. This of course is on top of mainline excursions and railtours that regularly come through the line from either the West of England Main Line or from the Bristol to Bath Green Park line.

[1] Per real life aside from the obvious difference that the Bath line survived in full, and also inspired by @Devvy's ideas for an alternate BR that rose anew.
[2] The bad news is that this butterflies the East Somerset Railway as it exists in OTL.
[3] In this AU, the oil crisis meant BR steam lastest until 1974. One consequence is that 73136, which was also considered for preservation by the city of Peterborough, would be the locomotive that said city preserves (more on that another day).
[4] That said, much more of the viaduct than real life still exists, including most of what went through Blandford itself which is now a walkway for pedestrians and cyclists.

[Northmoor]

@Murican It's plausible and implausible at the same time, but if you're you're going to let your imagination run wild, let it run I say! 

Maintaining the infrastructure for 35+ miles of the main line, plus the Highbridge branch, plus the train fleet to operate it, is going to require a volunteer army much larger than any UK preserved railway has ever managed to raise.  This is comfortably twice the size of the West Somerset Railway; based on what you've described, it is likely that this and many other preserved railways even further afield may never have got off the ground, if the volunteers required were already fully committed to the S&DHR.

[Murican]

On 29/04/2024 at 12:20, Northmoor said:

Maintaining the infrastructure for 35+ miles of the main line, plus the Highbridge branch, plus the train fleet to operate it, is going to require a volunteer army much larger than any UK preserved railway has ever managed to raise.  This is comfortably twice the size of the West Somerset Railway; based on what you've described, it is likely that this and many other preserved railways even further afield may never have got off the ground, if the volunteers required were already fully committed to the S&DHR.

To be fair it does help that lines like the West Somerset ultimately stayed part of BR in this AU.

[SM42]

I've always wondered what would have transpired over the years if the SVR had gone north rather than south from Bridgnorth. 

 

Maybe it may have got as far as Highley after many years of fundraising

 

 

 

Andy

[Orion]

Various alternatives for the now preserved Churnet Valley Railway were proposed originally, including the Alton Towers section of the original line and the Biddulph Valley line.

 

TBH the whole line from Uttoxeter through Leek should probably have never closed. it would have been a wonderful line to ride. Too long for one preserved railway though.