Railway lines in tarmac or concrete.

[Halton Boy]

Hello everyone

On a real railway that was in an industrial site the track could be buried in tarmac or concrete so that lorries and forklift trucks could drive across the track.

 

In the steam era how were the points operated?

Did they have point levers next to the points?

Would the point levers be a trip hazard or get damaged by lorries and forklift trucks?

If they used point rodding to a ground frame, how did they run the rodding with the tarmac or concrete in place?

Did they have removable point levers?

 

On Chris Nevard's very realistic Brew House Quay layout he has large point levers by the points.

 

I cannot find any photos of old industrial sites showing point levers in tarmac, concrete or cobble stones.

Any help would be most appreciated.

Ken

 

[sir douglas]

sometimes it was a lever which sat in a slot in the road surface, sometimes there was a hole in one side covered by a chequer-plate for a removable lever (but this was more common on tramways) and others just threw the blades over with a crowbar

 

lever in slot type at Bristol Harbour Museum

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4476976,-2.5988104,3a,37.6y,76.9h,77.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAF1QipNpeIki6zBsYUWmuoVQsDwo6pV-OJd_L669DPfb!2e10!7i7200!8i3600?entry=ttu

 

crowbaring at Liverpool docks. you can see a slot running across in the back ground from the left hand point to the wall on the right suggesting there was a lever or throw against that wall, suggesting that the points could have had some proper way of throwing but was now broken and they couldnt be bothered fixing it

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

Hello everyone

On a real railway that was in an industrial site the track could be buried in tarmac or concrete so that lorries and forklift trucks could drive across the track.

 

In the steam era how were the points operated?

Did they have point levers next to the points?

Would the point levers be a trip hazard or get damaged by lorries and forklift trucks?

If they used point rodding to a ground frame, how did they run the rodding with the tarmac or concrete in place?

Did they have removable point levers?

 

On Chris Nevard's very realistic Brew House Quay layout he has large point levers by the points.

 

I cannot find any photos of old industrial sites showing point levers in tarmac, concrete or cobble stones.

Any help would be most appreciated.

Ken

 

Usually a 'fold down' lever which dropped into a slot in the ground and lay parallel with the ground surface when not being used.   Thus when not in use it was effectively at the same level as the surrounding ground surface.

[KeithMacdonald]

47 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

crowbaring at Liverpool docks

 

Just wondering, is it using a crowbar, or is a long spike to scrap dirt and rubbish out of the slots? To keep it clean, clear and safe to use?

[Michael Hodgson]

13 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Usually a 'fold down' lever which dropped into a slot in the ground and lay parallel with the ground surface when not being used.   Thus when not in use it was effectively at the same level as the surrounding ground surface.

... as seen in the Bristol Harbour example in the previous posting.

[Edwin_m]

56 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Just wondering, is it using a crowbar, or is a long spike to scrap dirt and rubbish out of the slots? To keep it clean, clear and safe to use?

I think it's the latter.  There is a white post near the end of each of the ducts, perhaps indicating where to find the lever.    

Edited May 9 by Edwin_m

[Halton Boy]

Hello everyone

I had been looking at factories and gasworks, but not dock yards.

I have now found these two photo's:

I think that what was used; inset lever or lever protected by bollards depended on where the lever was in relation to the position of the motor traffic and the size of the area.

Bristol Harbour side is a tight space where as the image above is a larger space.

 

I will use both. Also I will inset checker plate into the surface for each point.

Thank you all for your help.

Ken

 

[Halton Boy]

Hello everyone 

Just a quick question now that I have been looking at gasworks.

Rapido are producing a 00 gauge fireless engine.

Do you think that there will be a O gauge fireless engine one day?

Ken

[Barclay]

Researching for my American layout (on Google Earth !) I found this track on San Francisco docks. Whether the checker plate hides a lever, or you have to lift it up and insert the lever I don't know, but good enough for me as it's nice and easy to represent.

 

[Dungrange]

5 minutes ago, Halton Boy said:

Rapido are producing a 00 gauge fireless engine.

Do you think that there will be a O gauge fireless engine one day?

 

Never say never, but I guess it depends on how well the 00 model sells.  Rapido did suggest that they might upscale their J70 model to O Gauge, but there wasn't enough expression of interest, so it's probably only likely if more people would a fireless engine than a steam tram.

[Michael Hodgson]

21 minutes ago, Halton Boy said:

Hello everyone

I had been looking at factories and gasworks, but not dock yards.

I have now found these two photo's:

I think that what was used; inset lever or lever protected by bollards depended on where the lever was in relation to the position of the motor traffic and the size of the area.

Bristol Harbour side is a tight space where as the image above is a larger space.

 

I will use both. Also I will inset checker plate into the surface for each point.

Thank you all for your help.

Ken

 

That loco's running the wrong way.

[Halton Boy]

Hi Stuart

I think I will use that same point scheme on most of my points in the factory yard.

Hi David

My wallet hopes they do not make one.

Hi Michael

The photo's may have been reversed?

 

Well at least I know a bit more now.

Thank you

Ken

 

[Artless Bodger]

7 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

I think it's the latter.  There is a white post near the end of each of the ducts, perhaps indicating where to find the lever.    

Looks like a shunter's pole, wooden handle tapering into the socket of the metal hook, there's a smattering of dark dirt around the other blade tip too, already grubbed out?

Edited May 9 by Artless Bodger
Spelling, as ever....

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

That loco's running the wrong way.

 

As are the mineral wagons numbering and lettering!

 

Mike.

[DavidB-AU]

Two photos at Weymouth Quay with a plate next to the points.

 

 

 

Was there any embedded pointwork at Trafford Park?

[Halton Boy]

Hello everyone

I have looked at the first photo and this is what I think is happening:

The man on the left has a railway cap on and a blue shirt. It looks like he is holding a shunting pole. The man on the right is wearing a white shirt, is he the signal man.

 

That looks like a shunting pole he is using to clear the points.

There is so much rubbish on the ground you would think that they would sweep that up first. But not my job mate!

I think there is a white lever by the white post with the checker plate going to the points.

Thank you for uploading the photo, I could not find it on the web.

 

There has been a development. I will post a new post soon.

Ken

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Halton Boy said:

 

There is so much rubbish on the ground you would think that they would sweep that up first. But not my job mate!

 

 

 

I have often wondered about the accumulation of crud in tramways and lines like this.  Whilst it probably caused the odd derailment where strong solids such as stones or bit of metal got lodged, it clearly didn't happen so often as to warrant going to a lot of trouble to clear out the muck routinely.  Soft debris and vegetation no doubt got crushed by flanges, and when it was raining they would presumably wash some of it away with the water displaced.  However it the track wasn't used for some time, would it eventually become impassable because of accumulated infill?  I suspect minor derailments into cobblestones were just dealt with by those on duty without reference to management.

[jim.snowdon]

On 10/05/2024 at 02:35, DavidB-AU said:

Two photos at Weymouth Quay with a plate next to the points.

 

 

 

Was there any embedded pointwork at Trafford Park?

Not that I recollect from my experiences having working in the park and from a railtour that covered most of the park's system. All the trackage that I can remember was arranged as a private right of way, using conventional rail and sleepering, alongside the roads.

 

[Dunalastair]

On 10/05/2024 at 11:03, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I have often wondered about the accumulation of crud in tramways and lines like this.  Whilst it probably caused the odd derailment where strong solids such as stones or bit of metal got lodged, it clearly didn't happen so often as to warrant going to a lot of trouble to clear out the muck routinely.  Soft debris and vegetation no doubt got crushed by flanges, and when it was raining they would presumably wash some of it away with the water displaced.  However it the track wasn't used for some time, would it eventually become impassable because of accumulated infill?  I suspect minor derailments into cobblestones were just dealt with by those on duty without reference to management.

 

On the W&UR, frozen debris in flangeways apparently caused issues in the winter. A shovelful from the steam tram fire was a solution lost when the diesels took over ...

[jim.snowdon]

On 10/05/2024 at 11:03, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I have often wondered about the accumulation of crud in tramways and lines like this.  Whilst it probably caused the odd derailment where strong solids such as stones or bit of metal got lodged, it clearly didn't happen so often as to warrant going to a lot of trouble to clear out the muck routinely.  Soft debris and vegetation no doubt got crushed by flanges, and when it was raining they would presumably wash some of it away with the water displaced.  However it the track wasn't used for some time, would it eventually become impassable because of accumulated infill?  I suspect minor derailments into cobblestones were just dealt with by those on duty without reference to management.

In general, the flanges squidged dirt and debris out of the way, as they did for street tramways, or if it was solid enough just rode up onto the flange tips. Not generally a problem except for electric tramways, where it is possible to get the whole car lifted out of contact with the rails, leaving it both stranded and live. Seaside tramways, such Blackpool, were at greatest risk from this

American tramway practice a century ago provided for the use of girder rails where the four-foot side of the flangeway was inclined at about 45 degrees so as to better allow street detritus to be pushed out of the groove by the wheels.  There were even some girder rail sections where the bottom of the flangeway was left flat and the inner edge of the flangeway defined by the setts or paving blacks.

[stewartingram]

Blackpool & Fleetwood tramway used "angle iron" type check rails when double deckers were first granted access to the route.

[KeithMacdonald]

On 09/05/2024 at 14:27, Michael Hodgson said:

That loco's running the wrong way.

 

Better?

 

Edited May 11 by KeithMacdonald

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

Blackpool & Fleetwood tramway used "angle iron" type check rails when double deckers were first granted access to the route.

Yes, the consequence of a relatively uninformed decision by a Railway Inspector.

[Will Crompton]

Some years ago I and SWMBO went to Chatham Historic Dockyard on a whim and as luck would have it it was a 'Salute to the 40s' day so there was a lot going on including two locos running on the remains of the dockyard tracks. At one point we watched a demonstration of shunting and the point was thrown using crowbars. EDIT: just to avoid any ambiguity the crowbars were used to change the points by pushing on the point blades directy rather than being used to lever some mechanism.

 

I was also impressed by the sharp curvature of some of the track work - as Goldmember would say, 'very toit!'

Edited May 16 by Will Crompton
To avoid ambiguity.

[Edwin_m]

On 10/05/2024 at 11:03, Michael Hodgson said:

I have often wondered about the accumulation of crud in tramways and lines like this.  Whilst it probably caused the odd derailment where strong solids such as stones or bit of metal got lodged, it clearly didn't happen so often as to warrant going to a lot of trouble to clear out the muck routinely.  Soft debris and vegetation no doubt got crushed by flanges, and when it was raining they would presumably wash some of it away with the water displaced.  However it the track wasn't used for some time, would it eventually become impassable because of accumulated infill?  I suspect minor derailments into cobblestones were just dealt with by those on duty without reference to management.

One one German tram track I saw the type of truck that is used for cleaning gutters, with a special attachment.  It was driving slowly along the tram track cleaning the flangeways, and pulling out of the way every time a tram appeared behind it.