Track laying method

[bordercollie]

Hi

I am about to start laying track. I was going to follow the technique explained in Iain Rice's book on finescale track. However, in another book printed in 2008 he seems to have had a rethink on the matter. It seems that he now preferred attaching track templates directly to foam or cork underlay. Presumably he must have found difficulties in having a layer of paper between track templates and underlay. Does anyone know what these may have been? It did seem in theory, at least, that making  "chunks" of ballasted trackwork on A1 cartridge paper which is then transferred to underlay on the baseboard to join up with other "chunks" so as to eventually have a complete track layout, was a good  idea.

He talks about the resilience of the foam base. I have talked to a couple of suppliers and it is not a term they use. It seems to me that the resilience is the inverse of the hardness of the foam. So would the softest EVA foam that I can source be the best to use or are there other factors involved?

 

Best wishes

 

[PMP]

Take a look at woodland Scenics foam underlay, I’ve found it really good on three layouts I’ve used it on.

 

[brossard]

On 09/05/2024 at 13:01, PMP said:

Take a look at woodland Scenics foam underlay, I’ve found it really good on three layouts I’ve used it on.

 

 

I used that underlay for my 0 gauge layout.  It does work well, but I'm finding that at board joints, rail ends can sink or rise slightly.  This was quite prevalent a couple of weeks ago at a show where the humidity played havoc.  I think I would use something less squidgy, like cork, for track underlay at board joints in the future.

 

I build most of my turnouts and leave the paper backing in place for the area which only has slide chairs for support.  Even super glued, there is a tendency for timbers to pop out.

 

I also used Aileen's Tacky glue to adhere the underlay to the board and track to the underlay.  It is a PVA formulation that dries rubbery.  If you make a mistake, you can lift track quite easily.

 

I think Rice was trying to mount track on paper to isolate it from the board.  I looked at it but found it impractical for me.  Modern materials accomplish that.

 

John

[bordercollie]

Thanks for advice. I will look at the Woodland Scenics product and take care at baseboard joints etc.

Having thought about it bit more in relation to my plan I would not use with intermediate layer of cartridge paper and will attach track templates (Templot) directly to the underlay. Iain Rice himself seems have lost interest in the idea. Using the "Chunks" of trackwork would difficult to implement as has been said.  

Do you know if the tacky adhesive was like a latex carpet glue. This is what I was thinking of using in the absence of Copydex.

[brossard]

2 hours ago, bordercollie said:

Thanks for advice. I will look at the Woodland Scenics product and take care at baseboard joints etc.

Having thought about it bit more in relation to my plan I would not use with intermediate layer of cartridge paper and will attach track templates (Templot) directly to the underlay. Iain Rice himself seems have lost interest in the idea. Using the "Chunks" of trackwork would difficult to implement as has been said.  

Do you know if the tacky adhesive was like a latex carpet glue. This is what I was thinking of using in the absence of Copydex.

 

Why would you attach paper templates to the underlay?  Do you plan to construct your own turnouts?  If so, I would recommend taping the template to a piece of ply and building on that.  The easiest method is soldered construction on copper clad strip and I had a lot of success with that in 00.  However the drawback is lack of chairs, although after paint and ballast the missing chairs are not obvious.  My preferred method is to use chaired construction.  There are kits for 00 that look good.

 

I don't know anything about latex carpet glue so can't say if Tacky Glue is like that.  From what I've read about Copydex, Tacky Glue seems to be like that without the appalling smell.

 

John

[Philou]

I use the green wood fibre underlay for laminate flooring (not the foam one - never tried that). Although it cuts readily with a sharp cutter blade, the blade will dull quite quickly. I shape the shoulders with a bit of rough sandpaper and then glue it with watered-down PVA. Whilst the glue is drying, I hold it in-situ with mapping pins.

 

Whilst I have yet to lay any track, I'm going to try neat PVA, and hold the track with again mapping pins while it sets. Ballasting will be the tried and trusted way of 1:1 water:PVA and a drop of liquid soap.

 

Here's one I did earlier:

 

 

^ The fibre is 5mm thick and is IMHO, about right once the ballasting and cess has been done.

 

Good luck with whatever method you use,

 

Philip

 

PS: I don't know how the thin ballasting foam ages nowadays, but years ago I bought a number of rolls for the layout and when I came to take it out of stock recently, it had all turned to dust - crumbs! =:o

[brossard]

20 minutes ago, Philou said:

I use the green wood fibre underlay for laminate flooring (not the foam one - never tried that). Although it cuts readily with a sharp cutter blade, the blade will dull quite quickly. I shape the shoulders with a bit of rough sandpaper and then glue it with watered-down PVA. Whilst the glue is drying, I hold it in-situ with mapping pins.

 

Whilst I have yet to lay any track, I'm going to try neat PVA, and hold the track with again mapping pins while it sets. Ballasting will be the tried and trusted way of 1:1 water:PVA and a drop of liquid soap.

 

Here's one I did earlier:

 

 

^ The fibre is 5mm thick and is IMHO, about right once the ballasting and cess has been done.

 

Good luck with whatever method you use,

 

Philip

 

PS: I don't know how the thin ballasting foam ages nowadays, but years ago I bought a number of rolls for the layout and when I came to take it out of stock recently, it had all turned to dust - crumbs! =:o

 

The foam available today is closed cell and quite stable.  I know the stuff you are referring to.  WS foam is also 5mm thick.  Really, whatever works for you is right.  WS foam underlay is a bit pricey.  The club found some commercial foam that is 3mm thick and, from what I've seen, works very well.  The club layout is HUGE and the 3mm foam is only available in minimum large quantities.

 

John

[Dagworth]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

Whilst I have yet to lay any track, I'm going to try neat PVA, and hold the track with again mapping pins while it sets.

My personal preference is to use dilute PVA for gluing track down, exactly the same formula as for ballast glue. I have found it better to use a building grade PVA with some level of waterproofness when dry so that ballasting doesn't cause the whole lot to move. That said I ballast in six inch stripes so as to leave a dry section between each area of wet ballast glue, then a second pass to fill in the gaps once the first areas are dry, again to prevent the track moving if the glue holding it softens.

 

Andi

[Torper]

I printed out my entire layout (it's small) on Templot.  I cut it all out, and used it as a template for the cork underlay which I cut to shape and then glued to the baseboard with PVA glue.  I then stuck the Templot plan directly onto the cork underlay. (Hint - if you can, print the Templot plan on grey paper - it means that any ballast that might go astray won't be so apparent as if there was a white background).  I built all my turnouts off the baseboard using Templot templates stuck down with mild double-sided sellotape on flat plywood.  Once finished, these were transported to the baseboard and laid in place, together with the plain track (all stuck with PVA glue).  Suitable holes for turnout activation were drilled before laying the turnouts.

[bordercollie]

Hi

I had thought that I would print out the templates from Templot on thickish, paper possibly 160 gsm (the maximum my printer can handle). Then align and join these carefully as described in Iain Rice's book. Then, to build the track on the templates in "chunks" as Rice called it but, without ballasting first, and then moving "chunks" to the underlay. I have no experience in track laying and don't know how feasible it would be in carefully moving lengths of track made of multiple templates that is supported by 160 gsm paper.  I was thinking of maybe up to about 80 cm. Any advice?

Best wishes

[Torper]

I  haven't read the book you refer to and must admit to failing to understand the concept of "building in chunks".  What I did was to print out the Templot plan on 90gsm paper (I see no point in using anything thicker), cut it out and stick the bits together - that was about 13 ft of it.  I then cut out the cork underlay, using the Templot print-out as a guide.  After I'd cut out the cork I stuck it down on the baseboard, and then stuck the Templot plan down on to of the cork - I did cut the Templot plan into smaller pieces to make this easier.  So we have a baseboard with cork and a track plan stuck down on it.  Using Templot I then printed out each of the various turnouts and stuck the paper down with ordinary sellotape onto suitable sized flat ply bases, applied double sided sellotape, then on top of that I stuck the sleepers cut to size, and then the rail filed as necessary, using a combination of rivets and plastic chairs.  Once the urnouts were done I cut the paper round them with a craft knife and so was able to lift them on the paper template and stick them down on the appropriate place on the baseboard, having hopefully remembered to attach all necessary bonding wires to the points before doing so.  Once that was done I began to lay plain track, using ply sleepers and plastic chairs, though I doubt the method would have been any different if I'd used RTR flexi-track.  What I probably did was start at one end of the baseboard, lay track up to first turnout, lay the turnout, than continue with track after that, laying the turnouts where appropriate and thanks to the in situ Templot plan always trying to ensure a smooth alignment.  After that ballasting awaited...

 

There are numerous other methods.  That was the one that (largely) worked for me.  I don't trust foam underlay.

Edited May 15 by Torper

[bordercollie]

Hi

The term 'Chunks" is the term that Iain Rice used for a section of track. In terms of Templot it would consist of several pages of printed templates built off the baseboard on a paper underlay (cartridge paper) which after being ballasted was then transferred to the baseboard as a unit and laid on top of the foam underlay. Iain Rice's system  consisted of three layers, the foam underlay, a layer of cartridge paper and C & L track templates. I think the size of the "chunks" of track was limited to an area of approx. 30" x ?". Then subsequent "chunks" where joined together to complete the plan.

Best Wishes

[Torper]

That sounds a lot more complicated than building the track directly onto the baseboard and I fail to see any advantage in it.  However, if you fancy trying it give it a go and let us know how you get on.

[brossard]

23 minutes ago, Torper said:

That sounds a lot more complicated than building the track directly onto the baseboard and I fail to see any advantage in it.  However, if you fancy trying it give it a go and let us know how you get on.

 

I'm still unclear if BC intends to construct the turnouts himself.  Maybe it was said somewhere.

 

John

[Torper]

While I stand to be corrected I think BC models in P4, in which case he will presumably be building most of his own pointwork.

 

DT

[brossard]

11 minutes ago, Torper said:

While I stand to be corrected I think BC models in P4, in which case he will presumably be building most of his own pointwork.

 

DT

 

Ah, thanks, I missed that.  P4 is not something I would do unless we are talking diesels.  I tried converting a steam loco to EM and gave up.  About that time I switched to 0 gauge.  Finescale 0 gauge comes out of the box to the correct gauge (well to about equiv to EM - 4' 6.8" to be precise).  I also like proper couplings.

 

John