My experience at a recent exhibition

[jjb1970]

I suspect there's a link between the state of the country and these things, also external events. When times are good I think people have other things to think about and are more welcoming, when times are bad it's easy to look for scapegoats and people who are different are an easy target. However, that is just one causal factor of many. Something that doesn't help is the tendency of media and politicians to promote mono-causal ideas and binary good/bad labels to explain complex phenomena and events. Another thing that doesn't help is deciding to assign a point in time to start the clock and ignoring everything that happened before that point, history doesn't excuse things but it can help us understand them and in many cases things are a lot less clear cut than we might want to believe.

 

In terms of Britain, I really don't think we are any worse than any other country I've visited, and despite encountering some unpleasant attitudes my wife loves the country. The problem is international comparisons tend to drift into either self-flagellation or self-exculpation. The fact that we are probably average in the greater scheme of things is reassuring that I don't think we need to beat ourselves up relative to other countries, but equally it is kind of irrelevant if we have a problem. 

[97406]

I’ve just come across this thread. I feel for the original poster and it is a disgrace that anybody should be treated like that in a ‘civilised’ society. I just don’t get why people continue to be like that without a shred of empathy or decency. There’s something very wrong with a small (thankfully) proportion of society who still think it’s acceptable behavior. 

 

I love to see people from different backgrounds at these get-togethers and wish to see more of it. Bring it on and if I ever see that sort of nastiness happen, I’ll be happy to wade in and give the perpetrator a piece of my mind, in front of all the punters.

[Reorte]

7 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I suspect there's a link between the state of the country and these things, also external events. When times are good I think people have other things to think about and are more welcoming, when times are bad it's easy to look for scapegoats and people who are different are an easy target. However, that is just one causal factor of many. Something that doesn't help is the tendency of media and politicians to promote mono-causal ideas and binary good/bad labels to explain complex phenomena and events. Another thing that doesn't help is deciding to assign a point in time to start the clock and ignoring everything that happened before that point, history doesn't excuse things but it can help us understand them and in many cases things are a lot less clear cut than we might want to believe.

Binary is at least simple. It means you can pick a rule or guideline and follow it without thinking, so you're not the one who has to make decisions ("who are you to decide?") If anyone ever calls you inconsistent you should be proud, it usually seems to mean "doesn't stick to one oversimplified position and try to fit the world to shape that." That sort of binary thinking can lead to pretty ludicrous or unpleasant extremes even when it occurs in a basically decent position, and obviously when the starting point is unpleasant to begin with things get really nasty really fast.

 

One thing I find well-meaning but I believe is counterproductive is that it feels like we're constantly being reminded of differences, this group or that group. I get that it's trying to say "think about these people" but by emphasising differences I feel it leads to more of that othering.

 

History is a delicate one. We need to understand how and why we're where we are now, and learn from both the mistakes and the successes. But I also believe it's very unhelpful when people try to dredge historical issues forward to the present day. "I don't like you because of what someone who happened to be from the same geographical area two hundred years ago did to someone from the same geographical area as me two hundred years ago" is a pretty ridiculous concept, but it's common enough.

[Ian Hargrave]

4 hours ago, 97406 said:

I’ve just come across this thread. I feel for the original poster and it is a disgrace that anybody should be treated like that in a ‘civilised’ society. I just don’t get why people continue to be like that without a shred of empathy or decency. There’s something very wrong with a small (thankfully) proportion of society who still think it’s acceptable behavior. 

 

I love to see people from different backgrounds at these get-togethers and wish to see more of it. Bring it on and if I ever see that sort of nastiness happen, I’ll be happy to wade in and give the perpetrator a piece of my mind, in front of all the punters.

Which is,rather than report it as a “hate crime “,by far the best way of dealing with such a situation. Causing public embarrassment can be very effective.

[Mallard60022]

47 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Which is,rather than report it as a “hate crime “,by far the best way of dealing with such a situation. Causing public embarrassment can be very effective.

A carefully thought out strategy, without resorting to something the Police probably have little time to feel as if they can deal with in a satisfactory way, is probably best? Please don't let it slip away as you get over the insult. 

First, write to their Club if they have one and also write to the Exhibition Organisers. Tell each you are contacting the other.

Maybe even write an additional message to their Club Secretary if there is one, to be passed on privately to the two people. That Secretary or whom ever will then see what you are saying to the culprits.

If they do not belong to a Club, then ask Andy if he would mind you mentioning the Layout name and date of the 'incident' in public on here. No need to mention the organisers as they have no idea of this happening (one hopes) until they receive your Letter or email.

Folk will work out where it was but that's incidental really. 

A Ian H says, public embarrassment or at least outing is very effective indeed. They can curse and deny for all their worth but that is their problem. Let them seethe and possibly not be invited to another Show again!

 

Just some thoughts, but I definitely encourage the OP to not let this go. There is too much of this sort of c##p going on on Social media, even on what appears to be OK Railway related groups. Sadmins on these are either complicit, ignorant. lazy or all of those.

FB for example are absolutely useless at dealing with covert and casual hate speech and phobic stuff.

Phil

[fulton]

16 hours ago, melmerby said:

I would suggest that there is some level of racism in everyone, borne out of the natural tribal instincts of the human race.

I would like to consider myself not to have prejudices, but a while ago I attended a work, awareness/diversity course, we did a version of the "lifeboat" game, I was shocked at my level of prejudice and pre conceived ideas about people, all we can do is to be aware and modify our reactions accordingly. For the OP we must call out such comments so they are unaceptable to voice, even if, regrettably, people hold them.

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, fulton said:

I attended a work, awareness/diversity course, we did a version of the "lifeboat" game, I was shocked at my level of prejudice and pre conceived ideas about people

 

So...

The game worked as intended?

[fulton]

44 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

So...

The game worked as intended?

Yes, an eye opener, I now am aware to try not to prejudge, but at a recent exhibition a young women asked a question about a wagon, I mansplained her and was embarrassed when she was very knowledgeable.

[Mike_Walker]

Happened to me not so long ago whilst demonstrating Swindon Panel at Didcot.  A woman came in with two small children and started explain things to them in a simplistic way so I followed suit to all three of them.  She then revealed she was a signaller with Network Rail.  Oh! The embarrassment!

 

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, fulton said:

Yes, an eye opener, I now am aware to try not to prejudge, but at a recent exhibition a young women asked a question about a wagon, I mansplained her and was embarrassed when she was very knowledgeable.

So easy to do. I shall attempt to try to not do that sort of thing by asking a Question or two as suggested above sometime back.

Thanks for that.

P

[billbedford]

46 minutes ago, fulton said:

Yes, an eye opener, I now am aware to try not to prejudge, but at a recent exhibition a young women asked a question about a wagon, I mansplained her and was embarrassed when she was very knowledgeable.

 

I think that this is the real problem behind the first posting. In a place like an exhibition where most people have not met before, if someone wants a technical question answered, they have to give at least clues about their level of expertise/context to get the sort of answer they were looking for. Otherwise, both parties are likely unsatisfied with the conversation, which could lead to unwarranted assumptions being made. 

[Reorte]

13 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

I think that this is the real problem behind the first posting. In a place like an exhibition where most people have not met before, if someone wants a technical question answered, they have to give at least clues about their level of expertise/context to get the sort of answer they were looking for. Otherwise, both parties are likely unsatisfied with the conversation, which could lead to unwarranted assumptions being made. 

It sounds like the OP's questions were sufficient to hint at a degree of knowledge, and it's hard to see how an explanation of what a tram is could be anything other than patronising if given to anyone over the age of about five.

 

The Didcot Swindon panel example's much harder, since you're going to be pitching whatever you say at the general member of the public level unless there are pretty obvious clues to the contrary. Under those circumstances whilst it's embarrassing there should be any cause of offence, although maybe her explaining to the children should've been a clue. Personally the closest I've been to the receiving end of that was being jealous that my nephews got to pull a lever in the box at Beamish and I didn't!

[97406]

It’s the overheard conversation between the tram layout operators at the end that nails it. The patronising answers to the OP’s initial questions were inappropriate at well, especially in the context of other people’s questions at the time.

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, 97406 said:

It’s the overheard conversation between the tram layout operators at the end that nails it. The patronising answers to the OP’s initial questions were inappropriate at well, especially in the context of other people’s questions at the time.

Good point, I'd somehow forgotten that part in several of my replies, e.g. where I was possibly putting it down to just admittedly shocking ignorance rather than malice. That completely removes any tiny suggestion that there should even be a smidgeon of benefit of doubt.

[billbedford]

22 minutes ago, Reorte said:

It sounds like the OP's questions were sufficient to hint at a degree of knowledge, and it's hard to see how an explanation of what a tram is could be anything other than patronising if given to anyone over the age of about five.

 

 

The "I'm making/have made my own tram models and would like to know which chassis you used" part of the conversation doesn't seemed to have happened. 

As for patronising, a simple "Yes I know what a tram is, thank you" will swiftly prick that bubble. 

[Liam]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

 

The "I'm making/have made my own tram models and would like to know which chassis you used" part of the conversation doesn't seemed to have happened. 

As for patronising, a simple "Yes I know what a tram is, thank you" will swiftly prick that bubble. 

But it wasn’t just that, it was what the two operators said afterwards which is the real issue.

[john new]

4 hours ago, fulton said:

Yes, an eye opener, I now am aware to try not to prejudge, but at a recent exhibition a young women asked a question about a wagon, I mansplained her and was embarrassed when she was very knowledgeable.

I think the first response to questions always has to be "What do you already know?"  

[009 micro modeller]

19 minutes ago, Liam said:

But it wasn’t just that, it was what the two operators said afterwards which is the real issue.

Exactly, it’s this bit:

 

On 10/05/2024 at 21:28, ianmianmianm said:

I heard layout operator number one say "Honestly, I thought we were safe from them in this hobby". Operator two said "Hah, you turn on the bloody TV and they're all over reading the news".

which takes it beyond somebody who’s in a bit of a bad mood, or just failing to pitch their explanation at the right level for the individual visitor they’re talking to (both of which are not ideal but fairly understandable), and even takes it beyond unconscious bias, to the point where they’re just full-on, bigoted racist b@57ards. @ianmianmianm I’m sorry you had to deal with that and it depresses me that there are people in our hobby who hold such views. It’s particularly disturbing that they seem to see the hobby as some sort of white refuge from a diverse society. The other thing that would concern me is that there’s two of them (i.e. it’s not just one lone individual turning up to the exhibition and spouting their dodgy views, there’s at least one other person agreeing with and enabling them, even if not an entire club somewhere).

 

I can completely understand why you didn’t immediately go for the ‘public naming and shaming’ approach, but also think that as a railway modelling community collectively we owe it to other modellers (and potential modellers/interested exhibition visitors) to stop these two individuals getting invited to any more exhibitions, and to show that such bigotry won’t be tolerated.

 

There’s also the secondary issue of them saying something disgusting in future and a visitor assuming (hopefully wrongly) that it’s representative of the views of the organising club, or the rest of the exhibitors. On a personal note, I’ve also started taking more of an interest in tram layouts since I started messing around with some overhead electric stuff in 009, and now wonder if this involves any of the operators I’ve spoken to at shows recently.

[009 micro modeller]

On 13/05/2024 at 11:02, jjb1970 said:

I wish I had a dollar for every rant I have listened to from people of all sorts of nationalities to the effect that people from (insert country of choice) are not stupid. They know what they need to develop, the problem tends to be financial resource. And I have to agree. I attend meetings on a regular basis where delegates from government agencies and academia from developed countries talk at those from least developed countries in a really rather patronising manner which does indicate they consider those they're addressing to be a bit thick.

See also disability charities run entirely by non-disabled people for a similar set of patronising attitudes and talking down, from people who think they’re doing something good. These attitudes are particularly annoying because the bigotry is very subtle and so it’s hard to get people who aren’t directly affected by it to understand what the problem is. I think probably the word that encapsulates it is ‘paternalistic’.

 

In the past I might have sometimes encountered slightly patronising attitudes at model railway shows, though absolutely nowhere near the level of blatant bigotry described in the OP. I very much hope though that this is because I’m younger than the typical railway modeller, and not because of some element of my hidden disability people have somehow picked up on.

 

(Not that I think age discrimination is OK either, obviously, but assuming that a much younger person is less experienced in an activity that you’ve been doing for most of your life is, I’d suggest, less malicious/reprehensible than immediately making blatantly racist or ableist judgements about someone.)

[pete_mcfarlane]

It's the 'reading the news' bit that gets me, as if they've fallen through time from the late 1960s. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-54623417

[jjb1970]

The 'mansplaining' thing is infuriating but in some cases at least people are trying to be helpful and don't realise they're being patronising. Some doctors are guilty (regardless of their gender and ethnicity) but I suspect that it stems from habit in interacting with patients like me who are clueless on medical matters. Then again others can explain a diagnosis and recommend treatment in a way which is comprehensible without being patronising. A profession I think tends to do it very well despite often being the butt of negative views is lawyers. I find lawyers are excellent at explaining complex arguments in ways their audience will understand, as that is a key skill in their profession. By necessity they're also very good at reading people.

 

The ones that annoy me are the 'if you can't make the effort to be an expert why should I bother to explain things', type, Or the linked attitude  of 'you wouldn't understand the answer so there's no point trying'. I am an engineer and much to my shame I have met engineers like that. The silliest one is a professor I know who thinks and acts like that, isn't a professor supposed to be an educator? 

[DavidB-AU]

I once witnessed a hilarious exchange between an infamous know it all exhibitor trying to mansplain something to a woman who asked a question about one of the structures on the layout. Turns out she was a professional architectural model maker.

 

I have always taken the view that I never know more or less than anyone asking a question. You don't know the other person's level of expertise, nor do you know how intimidating it can be for some people simply to ask the question. How you respond can make or break somebody joining the hobby.

 

Back on topic, I have also witnessed some thinly veiled racism by an exhibitor towards a member of the public. I wasn't the only witness and the club was informed quietly. I later found out that the perpetrator's membership had been revoked. 

[BR traction instructor]

Several of the road vehicles on Mostyn are based on the earlier memories of onlookers as they chat with the front/shunting sequence operator whilst enjoying the layout. North Wales was a popular holiday destination and recollections of such as a blue Austin Cambridge with one front wing in grey primer resurrected in the traffic jam, along what was the main route to various resorts, is clear evidence of what links can be established through chance conversations/being prepared to engage with the paying public.

 

BeRTIe

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

I once witnessed a hilarious exchange between an infamous know it all exhibitor trying to mansplain something to a woman who asked a question about one of the structures on the layout. Turns out she was a professional architectural model maker.

On a lighter note, an example of this is probably my favourite TV out-take of all time, where the journalist has just learned a little about something technical and assumed they knew more than everyone they approached in the street.

Reporter: "Excuse me sir, would you understand if I said there was a problem with low level ozone in this area?"

Joe Public: "Yes, because I'm a particle physicist".

[Mike_Walker]

3 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

Several of the road vehicles on Mostyn are based on the earlier memories of onlookers as they chat with the front/shunting sequence operator whilst enjoying the layout. North Wales was a popular holiday destination and recollections of such as a blue Austin Cambridge with one front wing in grey primer resurrected in the traffic jam, along what was the main route to various resorts, is clear evidence of what links can be established through chance conversations/being prepared to engage with the paying public.

 

BeRTIe

I totally agree, although it's a different environment, the same happens when talking with visitors to Swindon Panel, all sorts of interesting conversations are had often wandering far from the subject of railway signalling.  Not unlike your average RMweb thread...

 

Our normal approach is to explain the basics of the panel, it's history, the area covered and how it works, to visitors and then encourage them to ask questions.  It's usually possible to quickly form an opinion of their knowledge level and tailor answers accordingly.  One colleague routinely opens the conversation by asking "What do you know about signalling?" which I always think is a bit brutal.