GWR pre-grouping liveries

[Mikkel]

The mysteries of GWR pre-grouping liveries have long been discussed on here, often in connection to other topics. Here's a thread for livery stuff that doesn't come up elsewhere.

 

Locos, carriages, wagons, uniforms, road vehicles, structures, or the colour of wheelbarrow handles in 1907. Anything goes!

 

 

Edited May 27 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

I’ll start off with some snippets from the GWR Magazine, which can now be accessed online thanks to an excellent initiative by the GW Society.

 

I’m currently working my way through the mags for the ca. 1910-1919 period, and some notes on livery have come up. Some have already been discussed elsewhere, but those below are new to me. The snippets are from the magazine’s regular “Departmental News” feature. They appear to have been written by GWR staff, including A.J.L. White, a GWR employee who eventually became the company’s Chief Clerk. He died in 1929.

 

Upholstery change, January 1910 issue

 “Another important feature in connection with the carriage stock is that a change in the pattern and colour of the upholstery, particularly in the third-class carriages, has been decided upon. The new material, which is bright and pleasing, has already been put into some coaches and has met with unqualified approval from the travelling public.”  

[Frustratingly, no mention of the new colours, do we know these from other sources?]

 

New lining colour, January 1910 issue

 “Still another important feature is that the carriage stock is now being, and will be in future, lined with gold leaf instead of with yellow paint, thereby adding very considerably to its appearance.”  

[confirms Harris in GW Coaches, who says yellow ochre was used 1907-1910.]

 

Lake colour application, August 1914 issue

 “Coaches, on leaving the Body Shop, are passed to the Paint Shop. In the case of the new fireproof coaches, the whole of the exterior of the galvanised steel sheet, previously to being fixed, is especially dressed, whilst the under-side is painted with red lead. Progressive coats of paint, etc., are applied as follows:

 

Red lead, filling, then stained and rubbed, lead colour, ground colour, lake, varnish lake. Subsequently, the writing, as well as the Company's Coat-of-Arms and Crest, is affixed by means of transfers. Imitation panels are set out by special gauges and the lines are sized and gilded by special gilding machines, the whole being followed by the application of four coats of varnish.

 

Great care is exercised in gilding, to prevent waste: A standard allowance is made for each coach and the "skewings " are collected in small bags, a check being imposed by calculating the number of feet treated and the grains of " skewings " recovered. It may be mentioned that the gilding annually runs out to 54,000 feet of coach.

 

In the case of painting new coaches having wood panels, as distinct from fireproof coaches, lead colour is used instead of red lead [*].

 

Vehicles which have undergone repairs are subjected to special treatment as, with the present colour, many will run upwards of nine or ten years [**] before the paint has to be burnt off, In the mean-time the appearance is maintained by revarnishing and light operations.

 

When burning-off is necessary, the coach is sent to a road specially fitted for this work, compressed air, combined with gas, forming a powerful torch for removing the paint films. After the paint is removed, coaches pass to the Body Shop, and then return to the painters for painting, etc. The Shop contains paint mills driven by a 22.h.p. motor, which grinds the majority of the painting material for Carriage, Wagon, Loco., and Engineering Dept. use. The output is about 82 tons of colour each month, excluding other special compositions.”

 

[* Might the different lead colours over time affect the shade of the overall colour, e.g one appearing browner than the other? 😉]

[** Longer painting cycle than I thought, but this may be a maximum]

 

Black panels on goods stock, July 1914 issue

“Goods Traffic. —As the direct result of a suggestion made to the G.W.R. Suggestions Committee by a member of the staff, it has been decided to paint a black panel, 3 ft. deep, on the inside of the doors of the Company's covered goods vans, and also to paint black the two top planks on both sides of open goods wagons between the door and the end—the object being to ensure that when the destination station is chalk-marked by a checker or other employee, it shall be plainly visible. It is anticipated that this will tend to prevent any wrong sending of small consignments.” 

 

[Eh? That’s a new one to me. Was it implemented?]

 

WW1 loco livery, January 1916 issue

“In consequence of shortage of skilled labour it has been found necessary to modify the style of painting the locomotives and tenders. For the present, the highly finished standard green, with lining, will be discontinued, except in the case of express passenger engines, the substitute being khaki, with unrelieved black for the underframings, etc.”

 

WW1 loco livery, January 1917 issue

“Mention was made in the last review [i.e. the annual review, see above] of the intention to paint some types of locomotives khaki. A number of engines were so treated, but it was decided subsequently to discontinue this style of painting and to substitute old green colour above the footplate with black below, the buffer beams being painted red.”

 

[Also mentioned in GW Way etc, but sounds like practice ended before 1917.]

 

Edited May 18 by Mikkel
Cleaning up

[Brassey]

Any mention of a change of coach livery in 1912? Surely something so momentous would have generated an article. 

[Mikkel]

He he, I know what you're hinting at 🙂

 

No, haven't found anything yet. Though the mention of livery changes is very ad hoc and many other major changes are not mentioned. In general I have a feeling that the issue of liveries was more of interest to enthusiasts than railwaymen!

 

[Neal Ball]

Thanks for this Mikkel - I have found the on-line issues fascinating and before you know where you are, thats an hour gone!

 

Re: August 1914 painting - I am very surprised to read that the paint has to be burnt off before the fresh coat was applied.

 

Interesting snippets thanks for sharing.

[drduncan]

I’m sure I’ve seen open wagons with a black panel - perhaps in the bible - I’ll check when I can escape the children and get into the attic workshop. 
 

D

[57xx]

13 minutes ago, drduncan said:

I’m sure I’ve seen open wagons with a black panel - perhaps in the bible - I’ll check when I can escape the children and get into the attic workshop. 
 

D

It is indeed memtioned in Atkins et al along with multiple pictorial examples. I have painted the panels on a few of my wagons. What woul be interesting to know for a 30s modeller is when the practise stopped.

[Brassey]

I seem to recall reading that the 3rd class seats were red rep until 1910 at which point they changed to blue. It is highly unlikely that existing coaches would have been reupholstered but new carriages would have been turned out blue. 

[Mikkel]

8 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Re: August 1914 painting - I am very surprised to read that the paint has to be burnt off before the fresh coat was applied.

 

Yes, especially given the recounts of old layers of paint from those who work in preservation. 

 

 

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Black panels on goods stock, July 1914 issue

“Goods Traffic. —As the direct result of a suggestion made to the G.W.R. Suggestions Committee by a member of the staff, it has been decided to paint a black panel, 3 ft. deep, on the inside of the doors of the Company's covered goods vans, and also to paint black the two top planks on both sides of open goods wagons between the door and the end—the object being to ensure that when the destination station is chalk-marked by a checker or other employee, it shall be plainly visible. It is anticipated that this will tend to prevent any wrong sending of small consignments.” 

 

[Eh? That’s a new one to me. Was it implemented?]

 

 

8 hours ago, 57xx said:

It is indeed memtioned in Atkins et al along with multiple pictorial examples. I have painted the panels on a few of my wagons. What woul be interesting to know for a 30s modeller is when the practise stopped.

 

Thanks for that pointer, I have found it in Atkins et al now.

 

Their wording is almost verbatim from the GW Magazine quote (but without reference), illustrating yet again how some of the established knowledge on liveries draws not on the company's own official internal records, but on the same contemporary accounts in magazines that are now available to the rest of us through digitization (the Railway Magazine being another common unreferenced reference).

 

Below is an example of the black patch - this is an O18 of 1921 (according to the caption), an opportunity to modify the Rapido offering perhaps.

 

 

But it does not seem to have been widely applied, I count just  3  wagons carrying it in Atkinson et al so far. The latest is an O22 captured in 1925. Well, that's five now - they hide well. 

 

 

8 hours ago, 57xx said:

I have painted the panels on a few of my wagons.

 

Ah yes, I had forgotten, very nice, here is one:

 

 

Edited May 18 by Mikkel
Corrections

[57xx]

28 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

But it does not seem to have been widely applied, I count just  3 four wagons carrying it in Atkinson et al so far. The latest is an O22 captured in 1925.

 

 

 

One thing surprising me on that pic is how much contrast there is between the GWR freight grey and the black, given how the freight grey is mostly considered to be quite dark.

[richbrummitt]

43 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

One thing surprising me on that pic is how much contrast there is between the GWR freight grey and the black, given how the freight grey is mostly considered to be quite dark.

I think most of what you are seeing is a difference in the gloss level between the ‘chalkboard’ and ‘ordinary’ paint

[Mikkel]

Here's a Black Swan:

 

Great Western Railway Magazine, November 1905 issue

 

"Locomotive, Carriage and Wagon Notes. By A. J. L. White.

During the four weeks ended October 4th, six new engines were turned out, viz., No. 190 (the last of the ten " Atlantics "), Nos. 2802, 3, 4, and 5 "Consolidation" type, and No. 2221, a heavy side-tank engine ; four-wheels coupled ; 6ft. 8½ in. diameter ; outside cylinders, 18 in. by 30 in.  Ten of the latter are to be constructed, and are intended for heavy express passenger traffic.

 

We have pleasure in illustrating the " Consolidation " locomotive in this issue. In the case of one of this type a radical departure has been made from G.W. standard practice, the engine and tender having been painted black, lined out with red. The effect certainly is striking, and it will be interesting to observe the qualities of the paint under severe working conditions."

 

So, a lined black 28xx in 1905. A tempting mod!

 

This should be seen in the context of other livery experiments going on on the GWR around this time, see e.g. another entry in the GWR Magazine discussed earlier here.

 

Edited May 22 by Mikkel

[Miss Prism]

Excellent stuff, Mikkel, and it seems to solve an outstanding issue. RCTS reckons 97, the prototype 2-8-0, appeared in black in 1903. But it didn't - it appeared in green. The GWR Mag clarifies it was one of 2802-5 that appeared in black - note it doesn't say which one. Muddying the waters, The National Railway Museum put out a release a few years back saying all of the first batch of the 2-8-0s appeared in black, but that is very suspect. It's a shame the GWR Mag didn't include a pic of the black loco, rather than the works grey portrait. What is slightly odd is that black had already fallen out of favour by 1905, when La France was repainted (after just one year in black) into standard green. So why start with black again in October 1905?

[Mikkel]

44 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

What is slightly odd is that black had already fallen out of favour by 1905, when La France was repainted (after just one year in black) into standard green. So why start with black again in October 1905?

 

Perhaps to experiment with lined black for the goods classes.

 

It's interesting how busy the GWR are with livery experiments for locos, carriages and wagons during the first decade of the 1900s.  Is it really all Churchward's hand, or was the board behind it. Churchward became Loco Superintendent in 1902, but it's not clear to me whether that gave him any powers over livery matters beyond locos - or even with locos.

 

Do we know who actually pushed these livery matters, and in what fora they were discussed? It would make a search for documentation easier.

 

On a related note, I see that the January 1904 issue of the Great Western Magazine is missing in the GWS collection. No doubt that is the issue in which a note on goods wagon livery changes was published 🙂 

 

Edited May 22 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Signalman's uniform, May 1910

The staff sections of the GW Magazine provides some interesting views of GWR uniforms over the years. Here is relief signalman E. Richards depicted in the May 1910 issue. I wonder what the stripes signify in this case?

 

The occasion of the photo is as follows:

 

"A gathering of the staff took place recently to present Mr. E. Richards, relief signalman, who has retired after 46 years ’ service, with an armchair.  Mr. A. S. Crouch (stationmaster) presided, and in making the presentation referred to the high esteem in which the recipient was held by all. Messrs. Bastard, Ingram, and Randall also spoke. Born in 1844, Mr. Richards entered the service of the Bristol & Exeter Railway at Leigh Wood Crossing in July, 1864, after which he was removed to Silk Mill and subsequently to Allerford Siding, and came to Highbridge in 1869. At that time all signals and points were worked by hand outdoors, whereas now there are two signal-boxes.  He was the first signalman on the Bristol & Exeter Railway to receive an additional shilling per week for gaining a knowledge of the single needle telegraph. He was a signalman during the whole of his 46 years’ service, and has the record of not having forfeited a single portion of his bonus. We wish Mr. Richards a long and happy retirement."
 

 

[Welchester]

57 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

A gathering of the staff took place recently to present Mr. E. Richards, relief signalman, who has retired after 46 years ’ service, with an armchair.  Mr. A. S. Crouch (stationmaster) presided, and in making the presentation referred to the high esteem in which the recipient was held by all. Messrs. Bastard, Ingram, and Randall also spoke.

 

I wonder who Mr Bastard was.

[Mikkel]

Hopefully better than his name. I like the armchair, can't think of a better retirement present! 

 

[Mikkel]

Continuing with pre-WW1 uniforms depicted in the GW Magazine:

 

Guards

Below is Guard Jeans in the June 1896 issue. He wears the stiff-sided cap - worn by Guards since 1851 according to Steve Daly's overview on gwr.org.uk. The cap and uniform will have been dark blue by this time. The wording "Guard" is on the cap but not the collar (inconsistent with Steve's overview).

 

 

 

In 1902 soft caps were introduced, as seen below on Guard Dean in the October 1903 issue. The wording "Guard" on the cap has been replaced with "GWR", but "Guard" appears on the collar. 

 

 

 

 

 

Inspectors

Turning to Inspectors, below is Inspector B. Dwyer, pictured upon his retirement in October 1907. "GWR" and "Inspector" embroidered in gold on the cap:

 

 

 

The following year in August 1908, Inspector Stanley shows a different style, with a gilt emblem in the cap and the staff grade moved to the collar (possibly including surname, sadly the magazine's photo reproduction was not good at this time).

 

 

 

Inspector Stanley retired alongside 3 colleagues, with the photos suggesting consistency in uniforms. They were all from the Hammersmith & City Rwy though, so there is a possibility that their uniforms were distinct from the GWR?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27 by Mikkel

[magmouse]

Useful info - thank you, Mikkel. Do you have any sense whether there was a difference between passenger and goods guards’ uniforms? I will soon need to sort out a guard for the AA3 brake van I am building.

 

Nick.

[melmerby]

On 18/05/2024 at 07:19, Mikkel said:

In the case of painting new coaches having wood panels, as distinct from fireproof coaches, lead colour is used instead of red lead [*].

Elsewhere "Lead Colour" can mean Gray or Red.

My father used to use "Lead" paint in his job, it was what we would call "Red Lead". It was used for priming steel.

He used to construct core ovens.

[Harlequin]

There's an account in, "Schoolboy, Servant, GWR Apprentice: The memoirs of Alfred Plumley" that confirms a small detail of GWR uniform.

 

When he was first employed by the GWR as a lad porter at Worle in 1890 he says, "I was a sad disappointed lad that night, for I had opened my brown paper parcel [snip] to find that the contents were a soiled second-hand suit of corduroy and uniform cap."

 

Then a little while later, "I had been supplied with a new corduroy uniform now and I often wondered why it was so saturated with green dye when issued. If one rubbed a hand down it, the hand would be coloured and any white material that touched it would need to go into the wash-tub."

 

Porters were issued with green corduroy for a few years after it had been abandoned for other station staff.

 

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Elsewhere "Lead Colour" can mean Gray or Red.

It can also refer to white lead paint which was widely used by the railway, not least for painting carriage and van roofs, and I rather suspect that that is what is being referred to here.

[Miss Prism]

On 18/05/2024 at 07:13, Mikkel said:

 

 

The loco looks to be outside-framed, so is a 1016 class or a Buffalo. It seems to be domeless, with a 3-segment tank. The snag is that there is no record of any 1016 or Buffalo without a dome after about 1890.

 

[Mikkel]

On 27/05/2024 at 19:28, magmouse said:

Useful info - thank you, Mikkel. Do you have any sense whether there was a difference between passenger and goods guards’ uniforms? I will soon need to sort out a guard for the AA3 brake van I am building.

 

Nick.

 

Good question, I had never considered that. They would have been in different GWR departments I assume. The brief biographies that sometimes accompany retiring Guards in the GW Magazine seem always to speak of passenger matters (see e.g. below). Steve Daly does not differ between them in his overview of uniform colours on gwr.org.uk.

 

On 27/05/2024 at 17:22, Mikkel said:

Below is Guard Jeans in the June 1896 issue. He wears the stiff-sided cap - worn by Guards since 1851 according to Steve Daly's overview on gwr.org.uk. The cap and uniform will have been dark blue by this time. The wording "Guard" is on the cap but not the collar (inconsistent with Steve's overview).

 

 

 

I forgot to include the story of Guard Jeans in the June 1896 issue. The reverence shown here is not unusual for the magazine when it came to Guards.

 

THE OLDEST RAILWAY GUARD IN THE WORLD.

Guard Benjamin Jeans , who retired from the G.W.R., at the end of last month after a service of nearly 54 years, can lay claim to be the greatest railway traveller in the world. To compute the number of miles which he actually travelled would be a difficult arithmetical problem, but roughly speaking it has been set down between three and four millions.

 

Jeans was appointed guard on the Great Western in April, 1842, and commenced his duties on the Paddington and Bridg­water line, travelling to and fro. He was at the opening of the line to Taunton, Exeter, Teignmonth, Newton Abbot, Totnes, etc. At that time the railway guard was not lapped or vanned in luxury. He had to accustom himself to riding in an open truck or with the third-class passengers, with no protection against the weather.  

 

In those days it was usual for the gentle­ folk when they rode by train to send their own private carriages and have them placed on flat trucks. Some of the old-fashioned gentry had such a prejudice against the railway system that they would not patronize it under any circumstances or conditions. Before attaching himself to the Great Western, Jeans was valet to Lord Carlisle. Jeans’ deportment is as dignified as that of a Court chamberlain ; his speech is scrupulously correct. When Lady Carlisle heard that he was thinking of seeking his fortune on the new railway she begged him not to risk his life “ in such a dangerous business.”

 

At that time the railway guards were chosen by the directors. They were required to be a certain height, no one under 5 ft. 10 in. was taken. The guard’s hat was made of the best beaver and cost a guinea, he was not per­mitted to wear a moustache, and on Sunday it was imperative that he should wear white trousers. To have seen Jeans with his erect figure, and quick, elastic step, bustling about the plat­form at Snow Hill on the arrival of the Birkenhead express, one found it difficult to credit that more than half a century ago, when the railway system was in its infancy, he was doing the same sort of work but under vastly different conditions.

 

In October, 1852, Jeans left the West of England for the opening of the line to Birmingham. He worked from Paddington to Birmingham till October, 1854, when the line was opened to Wolverhampton. He then took charge of the mid-day express from Paddington to Birkenhead, and has worked to and fro ever since, spending one night in London and the next in Birkenhead. Even in those days the work used to be rough enough.“ We often,” he says, “ had to ride in an open van, with just a covering for the luggage. The first winter I had on the Paddington to Birkenhead line was that terribly cold Crimean winter which I found most trying, But I stuck to it and never had any illness. You can imagine, however, for yourself what it was for a guard in those days of railway travelling.”

 

You naturally ask this grand old man of the railway world if he has ever been in an accident during the number of years he has been at work. He replies with alacrity that he has not, but, strange to say, the only mishap that has occurred to the Birkenhead and Paddington express was on a day when he asked for a holiday to attend the funeral of a relative. This was not very long since, and the consequences were not serious.

 

But what is most remarkable about this patriarchal railway servant is that after considerably more than fifty years of the jolting and hurry-scurrying of a guard’s work he should find his nervous system absolutely unimpaired. Only a few months since he passed the most searching examination by the Company’s doctor. His hearing is perfect, his eyesight would be the envy of an Indian scout. The doctor told him that his heart and lungs were as sound as those of a healthy man half his age, and his power of standing fatigue is as great as ever it was. He is as nimble on his feet as a dancing master, and it was marvellous to see this old man skip into his van as the train steamed out of the station at the rate of six or seven miles an hour. Yet doctors tell us that there is nothing more prejudicial to the nerves than railway traveling.

 

“ No, I am thankful to say,” says the oldest guard in the world, “ that railway travelling has not hurt me. I am able to sleep well and eat well, and the leisure I have I enjoyably employ in looking after my garden at home. I am very moderate in everything. I like an occasional pipe of tobacco, perhaps one or two a day, but certainly not more. I feel that if I smoked much it would upset me. As a matter of fact, I feel as well as ever I did, but it is just as well that I should take my pension while I have the power to enjoy it.”

 

Guard Jeans was a favorite with the employes of the Company with whom he came in contact, also with the passengers, and his reminiscences of the late Sir Watkin Wynn, Mr. Gladstone, and other notabilities are interesting. A committee, composed of gentlemen who are frequent travellers on the line, has been formed, Mr. J. E. Mitchell (District and Counties Bank, Colmore Row, Birmingham) has consented to act as Treasurer, and it is hoped that a very substantial sum will mark the public apprecia­tion of this old and faithful servant of the Company. We are requested to state that cabinet copies of his photograph, 1/- each, can be obtained from Mr. F. Wakefield, 1, High Street, Ealing.

 

OK, that was a bit long!

 

Edited May 28 by Mikkel