7S58 Shunting at Beattock 1974 - Wagon Identification

[ClikC]

Evening all.

 

EDIT: 31/05/2024 - Changed the title to reflect the interesting shunting operation shown in 

 

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Original Post:

 

I have a terrible insatiable fetish for Blue AC electrics hauling short wheelbase wagons, and so I came across this fantastic image of E3010 (Perhaps days away from becoming 81 008) probably April (or later) 1974 at Beattock, from Andrew Lance (J Powell collection) on Flickr:

 

Can anyone ID the 5th wagon in the consist? Obviously some kind of steel (Coil?) wagon.

 

Any other details very welcome, I’ve not ID’d the service in any of my WTT’s, possibly it is one of the Section B WTT’s I don’t have.

 

Regards

 

Matt

Edited May 31 by ClikC

[Southernman46]

Tis one of these ....................

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/coiltferry

[Rivercider]

The coil wagon could be heading for Mossend or Motherwell.

The first two wagons are wooden bodied highfits of china clay perhaps for somewhere like Corpach.

Other photos on Flickr taken of the same train presumably shunting at Beattock seem to show 16t mins

loaded with different grades of coal including possibly anthracite and/or patent fuel, so possibly from South Wales.

Could 7S58 therefore be a Severn Tunnel Junction to Mossend service?  

 

cheers

[jim.snowdon]

The most likely candidate for the coil wagon is the 60T Diagram 1/408, itself a conversion from a 60T Slab wagon to the same diagram.

[ClikC]

Thanks Gents,

 

I've seen a few China Clay wagons in and around the region in the period, does anyone know what industries, potentially in Corpach, were using China Clay?

 

The sequence of photos on Flickr seem to indicate this is a pickup or drop-off of 16ton minerals. Interestingly, Bing maps Satellite images show all the trackwork in the photo's as still being in position, and not surrendered to the weeds.

 

For images from Andrew Lance (J Powell collection) on Flickr:

1# Arrival at Beattock:

 

2# Passing 87 on a passenger turn.

 

3# Drawing forward or setting back.

 

4# Drawing forward after picking up/ dropping of one or more 16t mineral wagon(s).

 

5# Departing after reattaching the split portion.

 

6# Train departing north of Beattock.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[Dave John]

China clay was used for paper making. 

 

https://canmore.org.uk/site/103570/fort-william-corpach-scottish-pulp-and-paper-mills

[Fat Controller]

10 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

The most likely candidate for the coil wagon is the 60T Diagram 1/408, itself a conversion from a 60T Slab wagon to the same diagram.

There was a regular flow from Gartcosh to Swansea (Hafod Yard) for the Signode factory at Waunarllwyd; David Ratcliffe mentions it in hia book on 'Frieght Train Formations.

[dave75]

That siding doesn't look wired, I'm guessing as long as the driver knows the road that's fine. Is that a diesel exhaust from a shunter in the sidings too?

[SM42]

9 hours ago, dave75 said:

That siding doesn't look wired, I'm guessing as long as the driver knows the road that's fine. Is that a diesel exhaust from a shunter in the sidings too?

 

Possibly what the tall white sign is for. ( seen between the 16t and ferry van in the third from last picture)

 

Something like Electric locos not to pass this point. 

 

Andy

[Southernman46]

My 2nd 4 pennyworth ............................

 

Also the solitary (odd in it's self) 12t (looks like a standard full planked body/door) van has a white(ish) roof - unusual - possibly one of the diagram 1/212 margarine traffic dedicated ones ? ......................

 

The china clay wagons will be standard 13t wooden opens suitably modified but without roller bearings which many had - not the 9' wb "proper" china clay opens.

 

The ferry van is a DB 214-00xx (at the time) series Gbs "Fahrbootwagen" - which is written in the big lettered area on the doors and which were vacuum piped for use on BR.

 

The numeral spacing on the 81 is very odd .....................

[ClikC]

Thanks Everyone,

 

There is certainly a lot to dig into in these images, I wonder if any RMweb users have access to the Scottish Sectional Appendix, which might enlighten us more as to the operation caught in these images?

 

Regards

 

Matt

[Mark Forrest]

22 hours ago, dave75 said:

That siding doesn't look wired, I'm guessing as long as the driver knows the road that's fine. Is that a diesel exhaust from a shunter in the sidings too?

Zooming in I think I see the nose end of a class 20 as the source of that exhaust.

[jonhall]

18 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

 

 

The ferry van is a DB 214-00xx (at the time) series Gbs "Fahrbootwagen" - which is written in the big lettered area on the doors and which were vacuum piped for use on BR.

 

 

I don't think it is a DB van, I think its the Belgian equivilent http://www.manlocosoc.org.uk/chulme/slide-webone-off.cgi?ch-021&43

 

Jon

[Southernman46]

4 hours ago, jonhall said:

 

I don't think it is a DB van, I think its the Belgian equivilent http://www.manlocosoc.org.uk/chulme/slide-webone-off.cgi?ch-021&43

 

Jon

Yes I'll give you that - the DB ones were plank bodied 

[caradoc]

On 31/05/2024 at 09:24, ClikC said:

enlighten us more as to the operation caught in these images?

 

I'm not sure whether revenue earning freight was still dealt with at Beattock in 1974, so it occurs to me that perhaps a wagon was being detached due to a defect, maybe after activating a Hot Axle Box Detector (there is one on the Down line at Murthat, south of Beattock). 

 

[ClikC]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

I'm not sure whether revenue earning freight was still dealt with at Beattock in 1974, so it occurs to me that perhaps a wagon was being detached due to a defect, maybe after activating a Hot Axle Box Detector (there is one on the Down line at Murthat, south of Beattock). 

 

According to the rails it website (https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/B/Beattock/), the west sidings are still retained to this day for goods traffic, apparently timber. While of course I can’t rule out a hot box, the yard appears to be quite active for the provided photos, including some kind of locomotive for shunting.
 

again I can only hope other may contribute who have access to documentation from the period, or first hand knowledge of the area and it’s operations.

 

Regard

 

Matt

[melmerby]

On 30/05/2024 at 10:27, ClikC said:

Interestingly, Bing maps Satellite images show all the trackwork in the photo's as still being in position, and not surrendered to the weeds.

 

Still shown as fully signalled and operational on signalling maps.

 

There are actually four sets of freight sidings between the Border and Carstairs

Lockerbie, Beattock, Beattock Summit & Abington.

Still used to let passenger services pass.

 

Edited June 1 by melmerby

[Morello Cherry]

The odd thing is that the class 20 doesn't appear to move and I can't see any wagons dropped off or in the yard to be picked up.

 

If this is the first image you'd expect the wagons to be attached to it if it were making an attachment. It seems pretty clear what is in the yard, what is in the yard is pretty far back.

 

 

If this is it backing up to make a drop or to pick anything up the train doesn't look long enough given where the wires end. There are only 7 wagons to go to the 'do not go past this point' sign.

 

 

Maybe I am missing something but I can't see where anything has been left in this shot.

 

 

The 20 doesn't seem to move which makes me think it wasn't doing any shunting and I can't see anything in the yard in the sequence of photos that suggests that something has been picked up or is close enough to have been left by the electric loco setting back.

 

 

[ClikC]

I mean, all we can say with all certainty is some shunting took place, what and why remain a mystery, but perhaps details from a WTT or the Sectional Appendix will clue us in more.

 

I’d expect a very obvious extra wagon visible in the yard if it was a hot box. If you compare image 1# and 4# it appears the 16 ton mineral left of the brake van in the yard at least moved, but possibly the one seen in image 4# is revealed as being hidden behind the one in image 1#. My gut tells me the departing trains is longer than the arriving one.

 

Certainly something interesting enough for the photos to be taken in the first place was happening.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[SM42]

Well it certainly cut off the brake and some wagons at some point.

 

On that basis it wasn't shunted for the passenger to overtake.

 

The back end of the train appears to be in the left hand road as we look at it, so cutting off a Demic is a possibility. 

 

I'm not so sure all of the 4 16tonners behind the ferry van are present on the departure shot 

 

Andy

[Mark Forrest]

This thread may explain the presence of the class 20 in the yard and it may well be unconnected to the shunt move:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/10701-class-20-beattock-bankers-in-1970s/

[caradoc]

19 hours ago, melmerby said:

There are actually four sets of freight sidings between the Border and Carstairs

Lockerbie, Beattock, Beattock Summit & Abington.

 

There are Up and Down Passenger Loops at Quintinshill too, which are also in Scotland albeit signalled from England!

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

There are Up and Down Passenger Loops at Quintinshill too, which are also in Scotland albeit signalled from England!

 

Yep. Forgot those.

All appear to be regularly used for pathing purposes.

Without them the passenger services would have to be a lot slower.

 

[jim.snowdon]

On 30/05/2024 at 20:42, SM42 said:

 

Possibly what the tall white sign is for. ( seen between the 16t and ferry van in the third from last picture)

 

Something like Electric locos not to pass this point. 

 

Andy

Or more likely, "No access to ..... for electric locos"

[PatB]

On 02/06/2024 at 21:52, melmerby said:

Yep. Forgot those.

 

Something of a problem, historically.