Sheffield Council vs E.M.T

[Mickey]

Back in the mists of time, the footbridge across Sheffield Midland station was refurbished and extended with Council money, to connect the Supertram stop with the railway/bus stations.

 

Stagecoach, tryingto get some money back from their EMT franchise, decided to have ticket barriers installed at the station and prevent access to said bridge

The good people of Sheffield, and the council objected to this (protests and banner waving etc) and the Council refused EMT planning permission to install the barriers in a listed building...

 

EMT installed a few Revenue Protection chaps on said bridge (pity they didnt bother to teach them much about railway bye-laws )

 

The net result is that the Council are now looking to make the bridge a public right of way - who says the "little man" can win against the Privateers

[Talltim]

Its been a controversial subject in Sheffield for a few years now. As part of their franchise agreement East Midlands Train have to reduce ticket fraud, although it does not have to be by ticket barriers. The problem is that responsibilities are all a bit murky, the bridge is (I believe) owned by Network Rail, managed for the length of their franchise by EMT and refurbishment was partly paid for by Sheffield Council.

The part I find really ironic is when EMT Revenue protection staff block access to their own tram passengers (Supertram is run by Stagecoach, the parent of EMT) preventing them using the bridge cross the station to the ticket office to buy season tickets which they cannot sell!

[pete_mcfarlane]

Putting up ticket barriers isn't just about preventing fraud - it keeps all sorts of unpleasant types (drunks, yobs and beggars for example) out of the station.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Agree with Pete. Controlling access to the platforms greatly reduces anti-social behaviour on bigger stations.

 

Dave.

[Mickey]

Id agree with Controlled Access to railway premises... but in this case Sheffield City Council spent millions of pounds on the Upgrade

 

and I really dont agree with employing people who know nothing as RPA.. that tends to lead me to your fellow Officers Dave

[Guest Max Stafford]

I assume you mean the revenue protection guys Mickey? I'll admit I wouldn't hire a fair few of them. Some generate a lot of unnecessary work for the cops, due to a worrying lack of diplomatic skills. I suppose that publicly funded footbridge probably puts the Sheffield situation in a somewhat unique position, but in general, controlled access is a pretty good thing and makes for a nicer travelling environment than would otherwise be the case. After all, it's what they did in the old days.

 

Dave.

[The Stationmaster]

Scarborough Council I understand paid towards installing a turntable, I've heard of other local councils that chucked in a few bob towards station refurbishment schemes - and none of that so far as I'm aware gives them any sort of right to use of or control over the railway assets. So why all the nonsense in Sheffield - where I have heard it said that the main bunch affected by the RPA bunch on the bridge are students travelling to/from Sheffield Hallam Uni and it's not as if they have too far to walk to/from an alternative tram stop, without that ruddy steep hill enroute.

 

As far as the contracted-in 'enforcers' used on revenue protection are concerned many of them not only seem short on social skills but haven't got much idea of what they are looking at when presented with anything other than a run-of-mill and very ordinary ticket; all told one of the more dubious 'benefits' of privitisation from what I've seen of them and not much different from the so-called 'security' people we also find on some stations now and then.

[Talltim]

I think the two main legitimate gripes are that the tram stop is called Sheffield Station/Sheffield Hallam University yet you aren't allowed to access (when the RPIs and/or futures barriers are in) the University from it and you can't get into the station from it to buy anything more complicated than a simple ticket of the the type you can get out of a machine.

[Edwin_m]

Agree with Pete. Controlling access to the platforms greatly reduces anti-social behaviour on bigger stations.

 

Dave.

 

Shame then that in the evenings, when these problems are worst, most of these barriers are left open because there are no staff to supervise them.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I agree Edwin.

 

Dave.

[stewartingram]

Amuses me -or probably more accurately - gets up my nose, that in the Good Old Days (ie BR) no-one used to complain but do so now. Then, any station worth its name had barriers, manned by a ticket collector. Even many small atations nominally without barriers managed a member of staff to be there to collect tickets when a train came in. I know on the odd occasion when I got to a station without barriers or staff, I felt quite uncomfortable, even as though I was doing something wrong in entering/leaving the platform unchecked. So why the fuss now? The modern barriers are much quicker to negotiate (moreof them)than a single collector used to be. They must save revenue, and prevent the anti-socials from getting on the platform/train uninhibited. Bring them on I say, though there must be sensible applications such as in Sheffield. Finsbury Park is much like Sheffield, LU is not allowed to barrier the long passage under the mainline station as it is a public right-of-way, hence no barriers to acces the Underground platforms.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Shame then that in the evenings, when these problems are worst, most of these barriers are left open because there are no staff to supervise them.

 

Not necessarily. Here in Nottingham a lot of the problems seemed to be caused by homeless people. There's a night shelter round the corner from the station, and some of its inhabitants used to hang around the station begging during the daytime ("can I have 87p for my train home"). Barriers (plus a few security guards and the odd ASBO) seem to have cured this.

 

This link has a gem of a quote from the local MP about the Sheffield situation:

 

Mr Caborn believed a way could be found of checking tickets as passengers arrived at platforms without disrupting the flow through the station

So put barriers or staff at the bottom of every set of steps off the footbridge? Do you get checked twice to move to a different platform when changing trains? Sounds very much like he's never actually caught a train in his life.

 

From the information in the article, it sounds like a lot of the councils regeneration plans involve people using somebody else's land as a thoroughfare. Did *they* consult with the railway about this?

[Chris116]

I live in London but have visited Sheffield a number of times to ride the Supertram system, using Megatrain tickets to get there for £1 each way!

 

They had some of the security/revenue people on duty on one of my visits and one joker tried to tell me that my Megatrain printout was not valid for travel and that I could not enter the station! I told him to get the Station Manager, a Police Officer or out of my way. Once his colleagues had spoken to him he called the Station Manager who was very embarrased and not only let me through but also supplied me with a voucher for the buffet car on the train home to London.

 

I almost wish I would meet these numpties every time I visit Sheffield!

 

The simple solution would be to install barriers on the bridge and build another bridge with no access to the platforms, but that would cost rather a lot of someones money.

 

Chris

[Poggy1165]

I wonder how often Sheffield station has been 'open'? I think after a certain time (from memory 20 years) a de facto right of way is created.

 

Railways used to get around this by closing a (non-public but open) footpath for one day a year, but I suspect it's a long time since anyone has bothered to put the chains out...

[Guest stuartp]

I wonder how often Sheffield station has been 'open'? I think after a certain time (from memory 20 years) a de facto right of way is created.

 

Not in respect of operational railway land, the 1957 Transport Act (I think) specifically extinguishes this right.

[R A Watson]

Why not put the barriers at the bottom of the steps on the platform?

 

Wally

[Guest 838rapid]

Sheffield Station is closed,locked on night shifts between Around Midnight until 5 in the morning,although it is temporary open to allow passengers in for the 03.45 service to Manchester Airport.

 

God bless the open access policy.

 

Lets allow people to travel for free unless they are unlucky enough to get asked for a ticket.

 

Total insanity would you board a Plane without paying?

 

[Guest stuartp]

Why not put the barriers at the bottom of the steps on the platform?

 

Wally

 

Because there isn't room for the number of barriers required and you cause a bottleneck at the bottom of a staircase. Installing the barriers at Leeds required a huge amount of work to ensure that the barriers there didn't cause queues on the stairs, with the result that the original gap through onto the concourse had to be widened by demolishing the sweet kiosk to get enough gates in.

[Edwin_m]

Not necessarily. Here in Nottingham a lot of the problems seemed to be caused by homeless people. There's a night shelter round the corner from the station, and some of its inhabitants used to hang around the station begging during the daytime ("can I have 87p for my train home"). Barriers (plus a few security guards and the odd ASBO) seem to have cured this.

 

They've mostly moved to the bus stops round the corner, where I regularly have to wait for a bus home after arriving on a train. IIRC there used to be a second footbridge over Nottingham station, which was a public right of way, and when it was demolished I believe the right of way was diverted over the centre bridge. So I suspect you could insist on walking throught from Queens Road to the tramstop past both sets of staff.

 

Incidentally Stockport often has security staff at the bottom of the stairs up to the platforms. Means people can get from the car park to buy tickets (which they can't at Nottingham) but you may have to show your ticket twice when changing trains. At Manchester Piccadilly they seem to have moved the check from the top of the stairs to platforms 13/14 to a slightly less annoying place at the concourse end of the travolator plus on the interchange bridge.

[mezzoman253]

I quite frequently travel on the transport system in and around Stuttgart. There are no barriers anywhere and revenue protection is by travelling plain clothes officers. The fines are hefty, and in generally everyone buys a ticket for the whole journey. The railways in general are not fenced off and you can go from the street onto the platform directly. Can anyone explain the difference in attitude to railways in the two countries?

 

Rob

[chrisf]

It strikes me that more problems are caused by barriers than they solve.

 

At Bedford the barriers are programmed to spit out discounted tickets - except the most heavily discounted, seasons - during the peak hours. This is fine but it seems to be beyond First Capitalist Connect to switch off this attribute at the weekend so travellers presenting a Travelcard, for example, have to get a member of staff to open the barrier for them.

 

At Milton Keynes Central once a year I collect my pre-booked advance ticket to Manchester from the machine in what I suppose is the booking hall and guess what, it won't open the barrier. According to a London Midland staff member who kindly opens the barrier for me the reason is to stop customers getting on the wrong train. So if someone has the gumption to save megabucks by booking in advance is he or she really not going to know which train to board?

 

The latest piece of nonsense I have encountered is on the East London Line on which London Overground have spent millions. Pity they didn't get barriers which Travelcards will open. Fortunately a smiling member of staff was on hand.

 

The makers of these barriers must be laughing all the way to the bank. Of course, when no member oif staff is available the barriers have to be left open. Strangely, this period coincides with the peak incidence of fare evasion, ie late at night.

 

In Utopia, sorry Switzerland, there are no barriers but there are ticket checks on every train. There's a lesson there somewhere.

 

Don't mind me grumping again - I've applied for the next series of Grumpy Old Men and need the practice.

 

Chris

[John M Upton]

It strikes me that more problems are caused by barriers than they solve.

 

The latest piece of nonsense I have encountered is on the East London Line on which London Overground have spent millions. Pity they didn't get barriers which Travelcards will open. Fortunately a smiling member of staff was on hand.

 

I am beginning to wonder if there is some sort of software fault with most recent barrier installations, the ones at Bognor Regis which were installed in May will not work with GroupSave 4's or advanced purchase ones either. Needless to say this leads to chaotic scene on Butlins changeover days (this coming Friday will probably be the busiest of the year so far) as the usual large families with enormous luggage try and get through the barriers whilst their five year old who has been stuffing Lidl value sausage rolls non stop down his gullet since leaving Victoria throws up all over the platform...

 

Crawley is an example of a station where to get from one side of town to the other, the station footbridge is used... a lot. The barriers are being installed there as I write this and when they go live there is likely to be a lot of annoyed locals who will simply have to walk the extra distance down to the level crossing instead.

[Dagworth]

Stowmarket used to have two footbridges, one by the level crossing and one on the platform.

When the crossing bridge was removed and the other bridge raised for electrification the agreement was that the station bridge would always be open for the public to use while the crossing was closed to road traffic.

I wonder what would happen if ticket barriers are to be installed in a case like this?

 

Andi

[phil-b259]

I believe that the real culprit in all this is the DfT. Written into all franchise contracts is a stipulation that the opperator must crack down on fraudulent travel with the DfT requiring a reduction of so many percent over the lifetime of the franchise. To do this they activley support the introduction of barriers (employing extra people is far too expensive), in fact I would go so far as to say that in the case of compeating bidders where one promised to install barriers and the other didn't the DfT would go with the barrier option every time, the only reason York escaped was due to friends in high places and I'm sure it will return at some point

[Talltim]

I believe that the real culprit in all this is the DfT. Written into all franchise contracts is a stipulation that the opperator must crack down on fraudulent travel with the DfT requiring a reduction of so many percent over the lifetime of the franchise. To do this they activley support the introduction of barriers (employing extra people is far too expensive), in fact I would go so far as to say that in the case of compeating bidders where one promised to install barriers and the other didn't the DfT would go with the barrier option every time, the only reason York escaped was due to friends in high places and I'm sure it will return at some point

 

I'm pretty certain that the barrier situation will remain in limbo in Sheffield for the duration of the EMT franchise at least, they require planning permission which the council won't give them.