No WR Blue Pullman from Bachmann

[Ron Ron Ron]

Don't forget that the £300 (-ish) figure is the RETAIL figure, not the TRADE figure to shops.

Read my post again Stewart.

 

 

 

[Flood]

Sorry folks, I can't add any more to Robert's last post regarding class numbers.

 

Modern Railways only has a list for the loco classes and a supplement I've found in the index of the 1972 RCTS Railway Observers lists all the DMU classes between 100 (inclusive) and 200 but no others.

[Neal Ball]

I can't see this being a mass produced item, so Bachmann have probably done their homework well, regards sales.

 

Just playing around with figures (I haven't a clue really !)..... if tooling costs were say £300,000, then sales at £300 a pop would cover that particular cost alone on a run of 1,000 sets.

Taking into account all the other costs involved right through to dealer margin, then a run of 1,500 to 2,000 may be sufficient for this project to be successful.

Of course this is just a bit of lighthearted guesswork, but whatever the true costs, I suspect that a run of 2,000 to 2,500 will do it.

 

 

Seems logical - I wonder how many units an average loco sells in a year?

[Neal Ball]

The comment "The WR version only has one pair of coaches (cars?) in common with the Midland Pullman, so it would require three new coaches to be produced" is strictly speaking true. However, if Bachmann think about what they are doing with the tooling, they can avoid having to do three entirely new coaches.

 

The power cars were the same apart from the passenger compartment, so why can they not design the tooling for the different variants? They manage this sort of thing elsewhere in their range (eg multiplicity of Peak variants).

 

The kitchen cars had the same body. If they tool the underframe detail intelligently, they can probably use common components across the different variants (eg some things under a Midland motor kitchen first were the same as under a WR motor parlour second). Bogies and other details were also common - they just need the correct mix for the particular vehicle.

 

The only wholly different body shell is the WR motor parlour second.

 

If they really think the sets were so different, it begs the question as to how much research they have done.

 

All straight forward enough - but! - Its already a huge gamble to produce a 6 car train in sufficient quantities, but to (essentially) produce the same model, but as an 8 car is an even bigger gamble.

 

I will be having a Midland version and turning a blind eye (or masking out the Midland!) - Doesn't fit my time frame at all, but I just like the idea of them!!

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry folks, I can't add any more to Robert's last post regarding class numbers.

 

Modern Railways only has a list for the loco classes and a supplement I've found in the index of the 1972 RCTS Railway Observers lists all the DMU classes between 100 (inclusive) and 200 but no others.

 

And the 'RO' usually is a reliable source so I wonder if this 251/261 business was a bit of earlier 'wish-listing'

 

Anyway whatever it was, or wasn't, they don't ever seem to have been in everyday use on the Western (the thing I travelled in the cab of from Cardiff to Paddington was a 'Diesel Pullman' and I can't remember anything anywhere about it - not even in said cab - that gave it any sort of class number).

 

The one thing I do wonder about the Bachmann model is if they will be tempted to do it in that appalling 'reversed blue/grey' livery? I suspect they might not as although it might appeal to some WR modellers I doubt if would be sufficiently attractive to the casual purchasers who surely must be going to make up part of the target sales figures?

[robertcwp]

The one thing I do wonder about the Bachmann model is if they will be tempted to do it in that appalling 'reversed blue/grey' livery? I suspect they might not as although it might appeal to some WR modellers I doubt if would be sufficiently attractive to the casual purchasers who surely must be going to make up part of the target sales figures?

I think they will need to do the jumper cables version if they are to generate enough sales of the 6-car set. I like Blue Pullmans and have a 6-car set in original livery and an 8-car set in grey/blue. Both are Tri-ang, professionally rebuilt with Southern Pride and Chris Leigh parts.

 

If Bachmann only do the original livery I will buy one 6-car set to replace my existing one as the new one will be better (I hope).

 

If they do the jumper cables version in blue/white with yellow ends, I shall buy at least one and possibly two as I have room for a 12-car set on my layout (just). If they do the grey/blue one I will buy at least one and possibly two of those too.

 

As I commented earlier in the thread, there is only one prototypical in-service livery for the 6-car set unless they do the jumper cables version. I'd like to know what they mean by the yellow panels version they are listing. Anything other than the MU-fitted one will not depict the units in a condition in which they ran in regular service.

 

If they change their minds and do the 8-car set, I can see myself ending up with three of those too, one in each of the main livery styles. And, don't forget that one of the 8-car sets ran with half the unit in grey/blue and the other half in blue/white with yellow ends. Plus the 6-car sets were split up after October 1971 and mixed with 8-car sets to create hybrid formations, giving even more scope for variety.

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

Regardless of what type of Blue Pullman Bachmann produce I will buy one. I just actually want to see what all the froth is about. I will splash out anywhere from 300-500 GBP for one and their will be plenty of people who will sell their MUM to get one!

 

This is cheap compared to what we pay in Australia.

 

You can have this Hornby Devon Belle train pack for about 280 GBP see link and that does not even get you the coach pack.

 

Link to hobby shop

 

Sorry to be blunt but complaining about prices just fall on deaf ears with me and I'm sure I am not the only one.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Pennine MC]

 

Regardless of what type of Blue Pullman Bachmann produce I will buy one. I just actually want to see what all the froth is about.

 

 

I hear the Jaguar XF is pretty good; whilst you're splashing the cash, could you get me one so I can see what the froth is about

 

 

[coachmann]

The latest from Hornby is their spy is dyslexic and and after discovering that Bachmann is working on a BP, Hornby's model of Puffing Billy is still forging ahead.

[Poor Old Bruce]

The irony of course being that as far as BR were concerned there was never any such thing as 'the Blue Pullman'.

Well that was what British Transport Films called it in 1960 so it's been called that for the last 50 years.

[craigwelsh]

Well that was what British Transport Films called it in 1960 so it's been called that for the last 50 years.

True but they aint BR who I was talking about.. Stationmaster has covered the relevant now anyway.

 

Reading through Kevin Robertson's books the other night though I couldn't find any reference in those to a TOPS code, I will have to look through the archive of the Yahoo group and see if it ever came up for discussion there.

 

The wiki page is grouped into a Railways project rather than having its own discussion page where I would have expected some queries on the tops code.. If someone writes some guff on here about the tops code though it'll probably end up on Wikipedia as the official reference mind .

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Getting back to the class designations. <BR>The 1974 RCTS Coaching Stock Book, showing the position at the end of 1973, states that the trains remain in stock but withdrawn from active service. It gives the following class numbers: Six-car units = Class 251 Eight-car units = Class 252 <BR>To me, it makes more sense to have a single class designation for a complete unit. After all, the SR DEMUs (Hastings/Hampshire units) were given one classification for the whole unit within the 200 series, unlike DMUs that initially had separate class numbers for individual vehicles. <BR>However, if the RCTS list is correct, it begs the question why the prototype HST didn't become Class 253, rather than 252? But material produced by the RCTS was/is of a high standard. Were the six-car units to have been Class 250 and the eight-cars Class 251? But BR generally didn't like starting a series with a class ending in a zero. Maybe all the Pullman's were lumped together as Class 251? More questions than answers................................................

[andyman7]

Production HSTs were class 253 for the WR units and 254 for the ER units, so there is a precedent for 'split' class numbers.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Further to my previous post, the 1974 RCTS book also mentioned, as a late item, the new build of 54 HST power cars for the 27 WR 7-car sets. These were to be Class 253 (as indeed they came out as such in 1976). What is interesting is that the two prototype power cars were also included with this classification number.

[The Stationmaster]

Further to my previous post, the 1974 RCTS book also mentioned, as a late item, the new build of 54 HST power cars for the 27 WR 7-car sets. These were to be Class 253 (as indeed they came out as such in 1976). What is interesting is that the two prototype power cars were also included with this classification number.

 

And the prototype HST had appeared in June 1972, however it didn't carry painted set numbers on the power car front ends until some time later; they are not present on 1973 photos but are in 1975. And of course there were considerable detail differences between the prototype power cars and the production version; that's one reason why nothing more than a cosmetic 'restoration' was planned for one of the prototype pcs in 1985 as part of GW150.

 

I have great respect for the usual accuracy of RCTS information although errors sometimes occur (and are normally corrected sooner or later in the RO) but the information is only as good as the source it comes from. It seems, all else apart, that there was a considerable amount of 'flux' in the dmu class numbering scheme in its early days with, no doubt, some left-hands and right-hands heading in different directions so I wouldn't be surprised if one list of proposed numberings differed from another. The interesting thing to pin down - if at all possible this far on - is the list which actually became the reality at the time and to what extent it was ever applied.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Thanks Mike.

 

I think at one time there was a proposal to classify the 7-car NE/SW cross-country sets as Class 255s, but by then the power cars had become designated as locomotives.

 

I'd still very much like to know if the Pullmans were to be Class 250 / 251, or as the RCTS mention, 251 / 252.

 

As you righty say, the HST prototype power cars started out as Class 41 locos. I know by the time the train entered public service on the WR in May 1975, it was designated as a unit, number 252001, and the power cars numbered 43000/1.

[The Stationmaster]

 

I'd still very much like to know if the Pullmans were to be Class 250 / 251, or as the RCTS mention, 251 / 252.

 

 

I really wonder if the mysteries of set numbering will ever make any sense ? Slightly off the BP subject but on the numbering theme there was a proper tangle with the Eurostar sets - with the Three Capitals units all was nice and simple, they were Class 373. But when the Regional sets came along there was a big debate as to whether they should be 373/1 or whether the original Class 373 should be become 373/1 and the Regional sets should be 373/2. Both versions of this tale akin to counting angels on the head of a pin got into print (various) with the result that everbody knew what a 373 was, everybody knew what a 373/2 might be, and a 373/1 was what it had been called in the last letter you had received and might well be different from what it was called a week previously.