No WR Blue Pullman from Bachmann

[Dagworth]

I was in my local model shop today picking up some Bachmann wagons (ordered just over a year ago, they arrived last Friday ) and asked the owner if he was going to order the Blue Pullman? No way he said.

 

This is a shop with model railways as very much the smaller part of its business - with him normally ordering no more than six of any particular loco when it's anounced. So very different from the box shifters but still providing a model railway retail presence on the High Street, and in an area where most of his customers willingly pay the advertised retail price for model railway items so he is moving stock with £100+ prices without too much difficulty.

 

No doubt Bachmann won't be upset by not having an order from him for Blue Pullmans. But to what extent is his wish not to tie up money in a very large ticket item going to be typical of smaller retailers I wonder?

Is it that expensive really? Compared to an O gauge Heljan 47 it seems quite a bargain....

 

Andi

[Ron Ron Ron]

Is it that expensive really? Compared to an O gauge Heljan 47 it seems quite a bargain....

 

I think that's a good question Andi.

 

Apart from your example of the Heljan 47, others have made comparisons with the price of a loco + X number of coaches.

On the face of it, £300 seems like a reasonable price considering the likely volumes that will be produced.

 

.

 

 

 

[John B]

To take Ron's point - a Hornby *A3 / A4 and 5 Gresleys at RRP won't give you mich change, if any, out of GBP300..

 

For the US market, a few "iconic" train packs (fancy MUs) have recently been produced. Usually they consist of a powered power car, dummy power car (or trailer) and intermediate carriage - in a 3-pack. Expect to pay arpund $300. The Amtrak turbotrain, the GM Aerotrain, and the UP "City" all followed this pattern. Want a scale length set, sir? That'll cost you an extra $100 or so per 3 extras. Very comparable to Bachmann's 6 car rate, and not, I'd venture to suggest, without coincidence..

 

 

 

* substitute with loco and coaches of your heart's desire

[Ozexpatriate]

For the US market, a few "iconic" train packs (fancy MUs) have recently been produced. Usually they consist of a powered power car, dummy power car (or trailer) and intermediate carriage - in a 3-pack. Expect to pay arpund $300. The Amtrak turbotrain, the GM Aerotrain, and the UP "City" all followed this pattern. Want a scale length set, sir? That'll cost you an extra $100 or so per 3 extras.

Walthers (who I believe use Sanda Kan as their manufacturer) are reintroducing their AT&SF Super Chief. With an A+B EMD F3 power set at about $300.00 (DC only, DCC+Sound is $450.00) and about $65.00 per coach, a train using only four of the eight coaches being offered runs to about $560.00. I would guess this to be a comparable amount of motor, wheels, plastic and paint to the Midland Pullman - for considerably more money, even assuming an exchange rate of $1.50 to the pound.

 

It makes the £300.00 Midland Pullman look like a bargain. Since this is a re-introduction, Walthers probably have a pretty good idea of what the demand will look like.

[The Stationmaster]

Is it that expensive really? Compared to an O gauge Heljan 47 it seems quite a bargain....

 

Andi

 

 

I don't think it's expensive (like several other folk on here I reckon 300 quid for such a train produced to a high spec is a bargain) but that's not my point. In this case it is a retailer who isn't prepared to take on that sort of financial commitment to take one (or however many) into stock and I doubt if the local market is going to produce any orders for him (but that's just an ill-educated guess.

 

As far as the US sets mentioned I understand that in some cases the commissioners/manufacturers will only go ahead if they have sufficient advance orders and that occasionally things have been cancelled because the orders didn't materialise. I don't think we're quite at that state in the British market but if Bachmann don't hit a commercial jackpot it might well be something that does emerge (and not necessarily a bad thing, just 'different').

[Diesel Dayz]

Well, that's three groups ...

 

This is a thread about a WR BP not being produced. Theres one about the MR BP being produced here

http://www.rmweb.co....e-blue-pullman/

 

Presumably, regarding this thread, ( WARNING speculation coming up), the MR BP fans are quite pleased they are getting what they want, therefore there's little interest from MR BP fans in contributing to a thread, (that's this one), about a model that's not being made, that they're not interested in.

That's just idle speculation though ...

 

I don't remember the BP wishlist being region specific. We should be happy in the fact that a major manufacturer is making a version of the BP. To be perfectly honest I would have pre ordered the WR version if the MR version wasn't available. At the end of the day we are getting THE BLUE PULLMAN!

[craigwelsh]

I don't remember the BP wishlist being region specific. We should be happy in the fact that a major manufacturer is making a version of the BP. To be perfectly honest I would have pre ordered the WR version if the MR version wasn't available. At the end of the day we are getting THE BLUE PULLMAN!

The irony of course being that as far as BR were concerned there was never any such thing as 'the Blue Pullman'.

 

Another benefit of the Midland Pullman though is not having the destination blind boxes in the power cars for people to moan about it having the wrong destination .

 

According to mremag we'll have something else to froth about next week with more commissions being announced!

[Diesel Dayz]

The irony of course being that as far as BR were concerned there was never any such thing as 'the Blue Pullman'.

 

 

 

Ok, the luxury 1960s DMU then

[craigwelsh]

Ok, the luxury 1960s DMU then

Nope, they didn't call it that either , or 'the knackered early 70s embarrassment we can't flog' ..

 

My search of the Swindon archives has only turned up the ATS shoe fitting for it so far, hopefully there are some more drawings in there somewhere which will be nice. Otherwise Hornby could always have a sideline selling prints of theirs..

[Guest Max Stafford]

I don't get it either Paul, so here's a small interlude...

['CHARD]

Doh, it's got a pancake. Must be from Lima.

[Diesel Dayz]

DD I've no idea what you're on about, or why you've quoted my response to a previous poster and then commented on it as you've done above. It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

 

PMP. The point that I was trying to get across, as a BP fan, was it makes no difference to me what region the BP is. It could be WR, MR or even Island of Sodor for all I care. At the end of the day I collect Diesels and now I am going to be able to purchase a British Railways Class 251 ''Blue Pullman'' Diesel Electric Multiple Unit as a rtr model. Result.

[Pennine MC]

It could be WR, MR or even Island of Sodor for all I care.

Now there's a thought. 'Gordon' wouldn't like it one bit

[The Stationmaster]

PMP. The point that I was trying to get across, as a BP fan, was it makes no difference to me what region the BP is. It could be WR, MR or even Island of Sodor for all I care. At the end of the day I collect Diesels and now I am going to be able to purchase a British Railways Class 251 ''Blue Pullman'' Diesel Electric Multiple Unit as a rtr model. Result.

 

For the record the initial BR (WR) designation was 'Multiple Unit Diesel Pullman Train' and they are referred to in some WR operating documentation from 1970 as either 'Pullman Diesel Set' or 'Diesel Pullman'. On the Western I never heard of the trains being referred to as 'diesel electric' (although they obviously were); they were just plain 'diesel' with people being far more concerned about their abysmal engines than the bits that went between them and the wheels.

 

I have never come across any reference to them as Class 251 and in any case presumably - if things had gone in the expected order - the 251 designation would have gone to a non-electric APT (probably the one that became APT-E?).

[Diesel Dayz]

For the record the initial BR (WR) designation was 'Multiple Unit Diesel Pullman Train' and they are referred to in some WR operating documentation from 1970 as either 'Pullman Diesel Set' or 'Diesel Pullman'. On the Western I never heard of the trains being referred to as 'diesel electric' (although they obviously were); they were just plain 'diesel' with people being far more concerned about their abysmal engines than the bits that went between them and the wheels.

 

I have never come across any reference to them as Class 251 and in any case presumably - if things had gone in the expected order - the 251 designation would have gone to a non-electric APT (probably the one that became APT-E?).

 

 

Suggest you Google BR Class 251. Definitely not the APT!

[Flood]

I understand the method of thinking that as the prototype HST was the class 252 then the Pullman Diesel sets could have been Class 251. Like StationMaster though that doesn't ring a bell (whatever someone on Google says). I've got a 1973 ABC at home and I seem to remember they were just stated as 6-Pul or 8-Pul in that but I'm not there at the moment so I'll check later. No, I'm not getting confused with the Southern 6-Pul Brighton sets (nor the 5-Bels either).

I've also the list of all the new BR Class codes listed in a Modern Railways in about 1969 so I can check that as well.

As the first APT (APT-E) was a gas-turbine, and not an electric unit, then (as StationMaster stated) that could well have been Class 251 in some records.

[edcayton]

I would be interested to know how many Bachmann will have to sell before they break even. They have tested the water with the Southern EMU (4-cig/cor whatever) and a 6-car unit is a logical next step. However, the BP is unlikely to be an impulse buy in the way of an HST/pendo/Voyager, and if shops won't keep it in stock then it certainly won't.

However, seeing the number of Deltics, Falcons and Kestrels that have appeared on layouts over the last year or two, we'll have to see what happens. I do feel that the amount of negativity and even hostility that has been on here around the OT's plans and then Bachmann's proposals is unlikely to tempt the manufacturers into more obscure prototypes.

I reckon that Bachmann and the NRM played a blinder with CoT, and can see that as a good way to go in future. I'm sure that a large number of visitors to the NRM would be willing to part with their cash for a nice momento. Even foreign visitors either wouldn't know or care about it being 00 rather than H0, and I suspect that cheaper unpowered versions would sell.

If they made a J69 and an E4, I'd buy two of each-one to keep in GER blue and one to paint filthy BR black (hope this doesn't make it a wish list).

 

Ed

[The Stationmaster]

Suggest you Google BR Class 251. Definitely not the APT!

 

I would take that wackypedia source with a considerable amount of salt - far more than a pinch. It doesn't seem to understand anything about the BR late 1960s BR class designation system except - as so often - to incorrectly describe it as the 'TOPS classification system'; I'm sorry but if someone can't even get that basic fact right I tend not to take much notice of anything else they've slung into wackypedia. (Also, why would they classify the power cars as 251 and the kitchen and parlour cars as 261 when the 25X series was for trainsets and - when they came along - power cars were classed in the loco series?)

 

Anyway I'm more than happy for Flood to dig out the list in 'Modern Railways' and be guided by what it says - I might be wrong for all I know but as I said previously it was certainly not a designation I ever heard used. And yes, an ABC I have refers too them as '6 Pullman' and '8 Pullman', but as my final Combined Volume it was some years before the new classification system was introduced things could have changed.

[coachmann]

I just hope this wish-lister does not end up damaging the hobby.

 

I'll bet manufacturers will return to looking at single item models in future. This afternoons tea leaves show a SR 1C0-Co1 diesel electric....There ain't much else left in the diesel field....

[melmoth]

I understand the method of thinking that as the prototype HST was the class 252 then the Pullman Diesel sets could have been Class 251. Like StationMaster though that doesn't ring a bell (whatever someone on Google says). I've got a 1973 ABC at home and I seem to remember they were just stated as 6-Pul or 8-Pul in that but I'm not there at the moment so I'll check later. No, I'm not getting confused with the Southern 6-Pul Brighton sets (nor the 5-Bels either).

I've also the list of all the new BR Class codes listed in a Modern Railways in about 1969 so I can check that as well.

As the first APT (APT-E) was a gas-turbine, and not an electric unit, then (as StationMaster stated) that could well have been Class 251 in some records.

 

They are listed as '6 Pullman Units', '8 Pullman Units' and '6 or 8 Pullman Units', depending on the type of vehicle in the 1973 ABC (the 1973 ABC doesn't give TOPS classifications for any DMU/DEMUs). The 1974 edition does give TOPS for units, but of course the Pullmans had been withdrawn by then. Brian Morrison gives the following TOPS classifications in his British Rail DMUS & Diesel Railcars (Ian Allan, 1998, 0711023840) :

 

251/1 Driving Motor Brake First with Lavatory

251/2 Driving Motor Brake Second

261/1 Non-driving Motor Parlour Second/Non-driving Motor Kitchen First

261/2 Trailer Kitchen First/Trailer Parlour First

 

I would hope he's a reasonably reliable source.

[The Stationmaster]

They are listed as '6 Pullman Units', '8 Pullman Units' and '6 or 8 Pullman Units', depending on the type of vehicle in the 1973 ABC (the 1973 ABC doesn't give TOPS classifications for any DMU/DEMUs). The 1974 edition does give TOPS for units, but of course the Pullmans had been withdrawn by then. Brian Morrison gives the following TOPS classifications in his British Rail DMUS & Diesel Railcars (Ian Allan, 1998, 0711023840) :

 

251/1 Driving Motor Brake First with Lavatory

251/2 Driving Motor Brake Second

261/1 Non-driving Motor Parlour Second/Non-driving Motor Kitchen First

261/2 Trailer Kitchen First/Trailer Parlour First

 

I would hope he's a reasonably reliable source.

 

Brian Morrison is usually fairly reliable although Brian Haresnape is better as his sources were normally top notch (and interestingly he doesn't mention the 251/261 designation at all).

 

I think the dmu class designations were also published in 'Modern Railways' but not at the same time as the loco list was published - and again they were nothing to do with TOPS. But still perhaps worth a delve in the attic to see what was on the list?

[Ron Ron Ron]

I would be interested to know how many Bachmann will have to sell before they break even.

They have tested the water with the Southern EMU (4-cig/cor whatever) and a 6-car unit is a logical next step. However, the BP is unlikely to be an impulse buy in the way of an HST/pendo/Voyager, and if shops won't keep it in stock then it certainly won't......

I can't see this being a mass produced item, so Bachmann have probably done their homework well, regards sales.

 

Just playing around with figures (I haven't a clue really !)..... if tooling costs were say £300,000, then sales at £300 a pop would cover that particular cost alone on a run of 1,000 sets.

Taking into account all the other costs involved right through to dealer margin, then a run of 1,500 to 2,000 may be sufficient for this project to be successful.

Of course this is just a bit of lighthearted guesswork, but whatever the true costs, I suspect that a run of 2,000 to 2,500 will do it.

 

 

.

 

 

 

[stewartingram]

I can't see this being a mass produced item, so Bachmann have probably done their homework well, regards sales.

 

Just playing around with figures (I haven't a clue really !)..... if tooling costs were say £300,000, then sales at £300 a pop would cover that particular cost alone on a run of 1,000 sets.

Taking into account all the other costs involved right through to dealer margin, then a run of 1,500 to 2,000 may be sufficient for this project to be successful.

Of course this is just a bit of lighthearted guesswork, but whatever the true costs, I suspect that a run of 2,000 to 2,500 will do it.

 

 

.

Don't forget that the £300 (-ish) figure is the RETAIL figure, not the TRADE figure to shops. So your total of 1000 units would be less, perhaps 500? judging by the markup margin used in certain other industries. I have no idea of the markup in model railways, and don't expect any of the retailers on here to divulge it either, but I'll happily stick with my "100% from elsewhere" purely as a guesswork ball-park figure for now.

[The Stationmaster]

I can't see this being a mass produced item, so Bachmann have probably done their homework well, regards sales.

 

Just playing around with figures (I haven't a clue really !)..... if tooling costs were say £300,000, then sales at £300 a pop would cover that particular cost alone on a run of 1,000 sets.

Taking into account all the other costs involved right through to dealer margin, then a run of 1,500 to 2,000 may be sufficient for this project to be successful.

Of course this is just a bit of lighthearted guesswork, but whatever the true costs, I suspect that a run of 2,000 to 2,500 will do it.

 

.

 

I have tended to look at it as two locos plus 4 coaches and basing figures on stuff at normal sales volumes (whatever they might be ) allowing £90 per power car and £30 per coach - which comes to a nice round £300.

 

The thing is unlikely to sell at normal volumes so the pricing will have to reflect the need to recover investment so it will probably be a bit above £300. But I also reckon that if they sell 2,000-2,500 at that price they should wash their face financially. But in the last MREMag poll 160 people voted for it saying they would buy a total of 178 'units' - what then becomes interesting is how that aspiration turns into actual purchases because we seem to think that Bachmann would be looking to sell getting on for 12 times that number. So I wonder if Bachmann have some past results which show how wish-list aspirations translate into units sold, and they know that it is safe to assume a multiplication factor of 10 or 12?

[robertcwp]

Brian Morrison is usually fairly reliable although Brian Haresnape is better as his sources were normally top notch (and interestingly he doesn't mention the 251/261 designation at all).

 

I think the dmu class designations were also published in 'Modern Railways' but not at the same time as the loco list was published - and again they were nothing to do with TOPS. But still perhaps worth a delve in the attic to see what was on the list?

The 251/261 designations were also mentioned in an early Coaching Stock book by Bowles/Mallaband. It also fits with the prototype HST being Class 252 after it was reclassified as a unit. Why start at 2 unless there had been a 1?

 

The Morrison book has lots of errors in it, unfortunately. See this list of amendments.