Strange Prototype (of what?) in East Anglia

[trisonic]

 

 

The 'modernisation' attitude (that which brought us the new Euston and the proposed demolition of St Pancras) of the times was also partly to blame. The 1960s was considered "the space age", and virtually no one wanted to be associated with 'yesterday's' transport.

 

John

Yes, you remember the quote "White Heat of Technology" from Harold Wilson.

 

Best, Pete.

 

 

 

 

 

[Welly]

John's point about the trolleybus is right! There were modern vehicles but they had no heating in winter so people would catch the diesel buses instead!

 

Yeah there would have been no cash for expansion of either tram or trolley buses then.

[Edwin_m]

Many trolleybuses replaced trams in the 30s when the tram track needed a lot of money spending but the tram power system was suitable to be converted without wholesale replacement. However, by the 60s the original power equipment was probably also life expired, as well as the vehicles if they had been bought at the time of tram replacement. By that time a motor bus was probably cheaper to buy than a trolleybus (due to being a much larger market) and with low oil prices the whole-life costs of the motor bus were expected to be lower as well. These factors would have speed of the trolleybus relative to the motor bus, and the lack of noise and emissions at the point of use.

 

Things might have been different if the last trolleybuses had survived into the oil crisis (Bradford lasted until 1972).

[The Evil Bus Driver]

London Transport had a similar idea 75 years ago of running trollybuses through the Kingsway tram subway. They even built a special trollybus to operate the service. Unfortunately WW2 put a stop to it like many other things.

 

Indeed, WW2 has a lot to answer for.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

In the 1950s and 60s, UK trams and trolleybuses desperately needed complete refurbishment ( look at all those Edwardian trams working all over the UK post-war! ) but there were simply no money to pay for that so the trams and trollies all had to go!

 

I noted that the video clip of the Essen duo-bus system was filmed 20 years ago and that since then those duo-buses no longer operate in Essen.

 

I do hope that the misguided busway will stand as a classic textbook example of how NOT to go about public transport improvements!

 

 

There was also a similar system in Mannheim too but it didn't go underground. Check out this site for loads of interesting info. You could just show the transport departments this site and hopefully inspiration should strike...

 

Yes, although you say "1990" and it doesn't seem all that long ago, at least, not to me. There is the possibility they could cut grooves into the busway and lay those LR55 type rails in it. At least then you'd have some kind of railway and use of the guideway, especially if the bus companies get fed up and pull out. Incidentally I did see part of the Essen-Kray section which runs in between the two carriageways of the Autobahn when I went to Germany the first time.

[stewartingram]

One of the Yahoo groups had a contributor who is a professional consultant in the rail industry. Though he couldn't give much away, he claimed a while back to have been approached to quote/consult/whatever on replacing the rail track, probably on top of the new concrete. Don't know any more than that, but his many postings on subjects seemed to point to him being genuine! Let's hope so anyway!

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Yeah you could fill the channel with concrete and make slab track!

[Dagworth]

One of the Yahoo groups had a contributor who is a professional consultant in the rail industry. Though he couldn't give much away, he claimed a while back to have been approached to quote/consult/whatever on replacing the rail track, probably on top of the new concrete. Don't know any more than that, but his many postings on subjects seemed to point to him being genuine! Let's hope so anyway!

 

Why do you think I asked my question a couple of pages back?

 

Andi

[edcayton]

Would that be why you asked it twice?

 

Ed

[Dagworth]

Would that be why you asked it twice?

 

Ed

OOOPS!!!! Hadn't realised I'd posted that twice, that must have been when the site was playing up duplicate posting now deleted.

 

Andi

[Edwin_m]

I think there is a problem running 2.65m wide trams (as used by all UK tramways except Nottingham) on the busway using inset rails, as the lower bodyside would foul the guidance kerbs. Essen etc use narrower trams. Obviously if you don't need the kerb guidance you can take it out or bury it which would solve that problem. However the UK heavy rail gauge, being narrower lower down, would probably fit.

[daveyb]

If they want to put guided buses along railways, here is correct the way to go about it.

 

 

Interesting video that, and illustrating the point I mentioned earlier. Note that some of the route shown in the video is not guided - only trolley, but the reserved track/road is used by all public transport - trams, Trolley buses, guides buses and diesel buses in that system.

 

 

Hmmmm. So, it's a guided-hybrid-trolley-bendy-bus that straddles a standard? gauge tram/rail line. I was impressed by the way the trolley poles picked up the OH automatically. Why can't our transport chiefs look around mainland Europe and learn something from the way Johnny Foreigner does things.

Thanks for posting, most interesting to see integrated public transport. They just seem to get it so, er, right.

 

Ed

 

The Essen trams run on metre gauge track meaning the buses can easily straddle the tracks, many non-integrated trams run metre gauge in Germany. The integrated (standard gauge) S-Bahn services have taken over old urban branches and travel quite long distances. Think Gateshead Metro or Croydon Tramlink and to some extent Manchester.

 

 

I think there is a problem running 2.65m wide trams (as used by all UK tramways except Nottingham) on the busway using inset rails, as the lower bodyside would foul the guidance kerbs. Essen etc use narrower trams. Obviously if you don't need the kerb guidance you can take it out or bury it which would solve that problem. However the UK heavy rail gauge, being narrower lower down, would probably fit.

 

 

 

See the comment above about tram track gauge, but the loading gauge is obviously related. There seems to be a raft of problems with bus guidance gauges, both guide and loading. UK trams are wide a very long way down to the tracks not like older designs. This only presents a problem for the guides and the 'free' buses can travel on the inset track as in other UK systems.

 

The Essen and associated Ruhr/Rhine valley systems are really quite impressive in their integration, but they did end up with a lot of space to design it in post war years, rather than trying to fit systems into a very crowded townscape - no excuses for rural systems.

[Ceptic]

Many trolleybuses replaced trams in the 30s when the tram track needed a lot of money spending but the tram power system was suitable to be converted without wholesale replacement. However, by the 60s the original power equipment was probably also life expired, as well as the vehicles if they had been bought at the time of tram replacement. By that time a motor bus was probably cheaper to buy than a trolleybus (due to being a much larger market) and with low oil prices the whole-life costs of the motor bus were expected to be lower as well. These factors would have speed of the trolleybus relative to the motor bus, and the lack of noise and emissions at the point of use.

 

Things might have been different if the last trolleybuses had survived into the oil crisis (Bradford lasted until 1972).

 

 

This 2nd. post here, could, possibly? provide the answer.

 

http://www.rmweb.co....y-trolleybuses/

 

Or, how about sheeting the roads with steel and have an overhead, electrified wire mesh. Replace your combustion engine with an electric motor, fit a trolley pole, and you're off... fairground dodgems style .

 

Who said British ingenuity was dead ?

 

Now, where did I put my pavement buggy and hacksaw ?

I'll need m' coat 'n wellies, too, its raining.

[chrisf]

 

The main problem as I recall was that it was an expansion of the infrastructure to serve the new post-war housing estates; that was the expensive bit. With a diesel bus, the town/city could purchase it and could employ it immediately on virtually all of the bus routes, new and old. But a new trolleybus could not go anywhere without the wires. Not only that, but they had difficulty maneouvering around any obstructions such as road works.

 

 

John

 

 

That has been solved. A while back an experimental electro-diesel bus was demonstrated at Doncaster racecourse. Where there were wires it would collect power from them. Off the wires the power came from a diesel generator located where the rear engine may be found in a typical double-decker of today - simple but effective. Needless to say nothing came of it. The vehicle may be seen at Sandtoft trolleybus centre.

 

Nowadays there are those who regard overhead wires as ugly. They should have gone to Specsavers ...

 

Chris

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Most trolley buses had batteries that would last about 20 minutes or so off the wires. If a trolley came to roadworks they'd just put the poles down and go through on the batteries. In the depot they quite often just had a couple of sets of wires and they moved around on the batteries in there too.

[jim bassett]

I believe it is a drainage project! Not yet completed after having millions of our money thrown at it it still dont drain! Even when finished it seems it will go from nowhere to nowhere using water busses or maybe duwks to transport bods from Huntingdon to somewhere near Cambridge. Sensible light rail would have been best but the PC mob wanted guided busways!

[jamie92208]

From a conversation I had a few weeks ago with a man who was a councillor in Bradford, the main reason for the demise of a great system was the desire of the head town planner (Mr Wardley) not to have wires in his nice new city centre development, Petergate, in the early 60's. This effectively cut the system in two with a long length of non revenue wiring to get trolleybises to and from the works at Thornbury. This apparently happenned when the excellent and well respected Transport manager left for a better paid job and his replacement hadn't the clout to insist on wires in Petergate. The ironic thing is that Petergate was built on land that the Midland Railway bought in 1900 to build the West Riding Lines across the city that was later sold to the Council in 1920. Now all the 60's monstrosities have been demolished and the whole area is a vast hole as the proposed retail development has ground to a halt with the recession. If there was any sense in such things we could have retained trolleybuses and had a nice viaduct connecting the two stations. Even better now they could build one central station connected to both sets of lines, but when did sense ever come into such discussions. After all they' re busy demolishing railway bridges in Dunstable to replace them with another misGuided white elep[hant.

 

Jamie

PS this should probably be in the old gumpies column in wheeltappers.

[LNERGE]

I noticed there was a vintage bus event at Duxford on Sunday. I wonder if there was guided bus on display? Blanc Pachyderm.

[Fat Controller]

That has been solved. A while back an experimental electro-diesel bus was demonstrated at Doncaster racecourse. Where there were wires it would collect power from them. Off the wires the power came from a diesel generator located where the rear engine may be found in a typical double-decker of today - simple but effective. Needless to say nothing came of it. The vehicle may be seen at Sandtoft trolleybus centre.

 

Nowadays there are those who regard overhead wires as ugly. They should have gone to Specsavers ...

 

Chris

Lyon had trolley-buses, electro-diesel buses and diesel buses with identical bodies, built by Berliet (later Renault Industrial Vehicles). The electro-diesel ones would use the overhead until they arrived in the outer suburbs, then revert to diesel. They were sufficently similar for the driver of one I was travelling on to try and overtake another on one of the main routes- he'd forgotten he was running on electric. Sadly, most of the urban routes seem to have been replaced by trams in recent years.

[Bernard Lamb]

From a conversation I had a few weeks ago with a man who was a councillor in Bradford, the main reason for the demise of a great system was the desire of the head town planner (Mr Wardley) not to have wires in his nice new city centre development, Petergate, in the early 60's.

 

The opposite situation to Edinburgh. There the authorities want to put up wires for the trams. There they had the cheek to go ahead with the plans to string the wires across the road, using the buildings as supports, rather than errect posts. When the citizens of Leith Walk heard about it they were a bit miffed. As it is a conservation area you cannot put so much as a brass nameplate on your door. Edinburgh trams or Cambridge bus lane. Which will see a service first?

Bernard

[Edwin_m]

Choice of wires on the buildings or wires on poles, most people prefer them on the buildings. In Bremen they appear to be attached to at the town hall, over 600 years old!

 

(not absolutely clear on there, can't find a better pic at present but I've been there and believe me they are attached)

[jamie92208]

As I am also into tram restoration I have had this conversation with my colleague who is a retured architect. Apparently a 'rosette' as it is known for supporting span wires on a building, needs to be able to withtand 700 ils of pull. Most modern buildingss only have thin skins mwith curtain walls. They can't stand the pull. That's why Croydon has lots of poles.

 

Jamie

[lmsforever]

Trolley buses are a brilliant fo rm of transport I can remember traveling all over east London when I was young smooth acceleration no vibration from the engine altogether superior to motor buses.The cock up in Luton will not ease the congestion one bit anyway its a horrible place to go to why not demolish the place!!!!

[Edwin_m]

HMRI requires that tramway overhead on street sections should not sag below a safe height even if any one fixing is completely lost eg by a road vehicle colliding with a pole. The overhead is designed to break in a safe place so this event wouldn't pull the wires down. This is one reason for the "girders" in Croydon, the other was probably cost cutting pure and simple. Look at Nottingham for a much better overhead.

 

Agreed it's not always possible to attach wires to buildings, either because of structural issues or because the building in question has a doubtful future and they don't want to have to do it all again in a couple of years time.

[jamie92208]

HMRI requires that tramway overhead on street sections should not sag below a safe height even if any one fixing is completely lost eg by a road vehicle colliding with a pole. The overhead is designed to break in a safe place so this event wouldn't pull the wires down. This is one reason for the "girders" in Croydon, the other was probably cost cutting pure and simple. Look at Nottingham for a much better overhead.

 

Agreed it's not always possible to attach wires to buildings, either because of structural issues or because the building in question has a doubtful future and they don't want to have to do it all again in a couple of years time.

Apparently there are also insurance problems nowadays compared with the 19th century. However in many towns and cities the odd rosette can still be seen on the sides of buildings from that era.

 

Trolleybus oberhead, with the twin conductors is however a lot heavier and I don't personally know of any systems that used rosettes for Trolleybus overhead. Certainly in Bradford, (Which still isn't short of well built stone buildings) there were traction poles right through the city centre some of which had pull handles for changing the points in the OLE when a trolleybus had to swap routes.

 

Jamie