Strange Prototype (of what?) in East Anglia

[Welly]

Just found this website! http://www.noguidedbus.com/

 

Even Road enthusiasts appear sceptical about the (mis)guided busway!

 

Thread on SABRE forum

[Edwin_m]

Slightly OT I think that the following link might be a better idea as used in a few French cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Guided_Light_Transit

 

A cross between a monorail, tram and a trolleybus. The proper rail forms the guide and also a common return for the electric power.

 

That hasn't been without its problems either. There were a couple of incidents when the back of the vehicle fishtailed when going from guided to unguided mode, hitting a pole in one case. This is only hinted at in the Wiki entry, and probably means that the whole route would have to be guided on any future system, thus destroying any cost advantage over a conventional tramway. Two or three years back I asked Bombardier if it was still in the catalogue and never got a reply so I assume it isn't.

 

The similar but incompatible Translohr system is operating in Italy and China I believe, but I've not heard any reports of service experience.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridgeshire_Guided_Busway

 

 

So basically you can't turn a double track railway route in to a single carriageway road without widening it (which is presumably very expensive). Guiding the buses controls their position on the roadway, so you can allow less clearance between passing vehicles.

 

I doubt the width saving justifies the extra cost of the guideway over a conventional road, except perhaps where it avoids rebuilding of a bridge.

 

The biggest criticism I'd make is the low top speed (55mph) compared to rail - this isn't competitive enough for medium distance journeys like St Ives to Cambridge.

 

It's probably about the same as the effective top speed of the buses that will use it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridgeshire_Guided_Busway

 

A much better solution to congestion on the A14 (and other dual carriageways) would be to ban lorries from the outside lane and enforcing this with numberplate recognition cameras. Most congestion on dual carriageways is caused by lorries doing 56mph taking 2 minutes to overtake lorries doing 54mph.

 

There was an experiment running on the (two-lane) M42 doing just that - not sure if it has now finished.

[Dudley Dodger]

I really can't see the point in this. It would be useful if it were electrified, but surely light rail would be better. Longer vehicles, no need for them to be purpose built, smaller lanes, the only real disadvantage is stopping times.

[ForestPines]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridgeshire_Guided_Busway

 

 

So basically you can't turn a double track railway route in to a single carriageway road without widening it (which is presumably very expensive). Guiding the buses controls their position on the roadway, so you can allow less clearance between passing vehicles.

 

One of the sillier aspects of the Bristol scheme is that they're trying to turn a single-track line into a busway, which there definitely isn't room for. So for a large part of the route, should it go ahead, there will be a single lane of busway along the former railway alignment, and a bus lane for the other direction along the adjacent road. That will still leave some sections which have to be "bidirectional busway", with traffic light controls.

 

Personally, I think that one of the factors prompting councils to go for this - apart from their cheapness compared to a proper rapid-transit solution - is part of the aftermath of the Thatcherite bus deregulation. If councils provide big, expensive infrastructure works that bus companies essentially become obliged to use, that re-exerts some of the council controls over bus routing that they had before deregulation, whilst the private bus owners still have to do most of the work.

[Edwin_m]

One of the sillier aspects of the Bristol scheme is that they're trying to turn a single-track line into a busway, which there definitely isn't room for. So for a large part of the route, should it go ahead, there will be a single lane of busway along the former railway alignment, and a bus lane for the other direction along the adjacent road. That will still leave some sections which have to be "bidirectional busway", with traffic light controls.

 

In my opinion this is actually the type of busway application that might work. The major benefit of the guided bus is that it can run on normal roads so it is ideal for places where congestion is limited to a few hotspots that can be bypassed by sections of guideway. It is effectively a self-enforcing bus lane as nobody else can drive along it. It is also cheap in this situation because you need to spend very little on most of the route. A light rail equivalent would require track over the whole length and probably the more costly street track over much of it.

 

By contrast a long-distance scheme in open country like that in Cambridgeshire is probably more expensive metre for metre than ballasted railway track (though buses are a lot cheaper than trams) or indeed a standard road. And I haven't yet heard a satisfactory answer to what happens if a bus breaks down and traps several others behind it, given that reversing or pushing a dead vehicle are not possible on the guideway. I believe the one at Adelaide has a specially adapted breakdown truck but the one in Cambridgeshire doesn't.

 

A tramway will almost always require an order under the Transport and Works Act, which takes at least a year and costs in the region of £0.5m. I believe a guideway can be built under standard highway powers, provided it is open to any bus operator who is prepared to use suitable vehicles.

[trisonic]

Ha! I was just waiting for Mrs. Thatcher to be blamed!

 

Let's see; what they were hoping for in all this mess is for a system where the carrier runs along a pre-determined route off - road but then becomes autonomous at the end point (in order to go different routes within, say, Cambridge).

 

Best, Pete.

[ForestPines]

A tramway will almost always require an order under the Transport and Works Act, which takes at least a year and costs in the region of £0.5m. I believe a guideway can be built under standard highway powers, provided it is open to any bus operator who is prepared to use suitable vehicles.

 

Bristol have included "getting a Transport & Works Act order" in the timeline of their proposals, once funding is in place, so presumably their lawyers have advised them that busways aren't covered by their highway powers.

[SteveB]

The real daft bit about the Cambridge (Mis)Guided Busway is that once in Cambridge where the real congestion is, the buses will have to queue with everyone else, and dodge the hundreds of suicidal cyclists (anyone who drives/walks in Cambridge will nod sagely at this point...).

 

 

As for the Bristol Harbour Railway, it seems to be protected from closure. Given the tight spaces this should be interesting....

(see http://www.westofengland.org/media/168277/questions%20and%20answers%20from%20npn%20engagement%20.pdf)

 

 

Steve Banfield

[ForestPines]

As for the Bristol Harbour Railway, it seems to be protected from closure. Given the tight spaces this should be interesting....

(see http://www.westofengland.org/media/168277/questions%20and%20answers%20from%20npn%20engagement%20.pdf)

Steve Banfield

 

The plans involve the Bristol Harbour Railway being turned into a sort of tramway - or "new and improved track" in that PDF - running on Sundays only, or in other words about half the running days it had before the guided bus plans were published. See the picture of the Spike Island stop? That's part of the Harbour Ralway route, and the railway, in the plans submitted for funding and in that artist's impression, is a tramway embedded in the busway line nearest the camera.

 

For reference, this is what the site of that artist's impression looks like at the moment: - compare and contrast.

[LNERGE]

I plan to travel on the Cambridge misguided busway if it ever opens armed with the last passenger working timetable so i can have a good chuckle at the 'progress' in modern transport systems. To think a Cravens would have been able to make the journey quicker...

 

Looking at some of the photo's i've seen of the misguided busway there seems to be no provision for bidirectional working. What happens if a bus breaks down in section?

[Edwin_m]

I don't know if there is any place where buses can cross over to the other track, and road/pedestrian crossings may only be passable in one direction due to the way the guideway flares out on the run-off side. So if there is a breakdown it's back to the A14 I guess. This was part of my point about managing a breakdown - is there any way of informing the buses behind to divert even if they are run by different operators? How many buses will be queueing behind the dead one before someone in control (if indeed there is a "control") twigs something is wrong?

[pete_mcfarlane]

How many buses will be queueing behind the dead one before someone in control (if indeed there is a "control") twigs something is wrong?

Hopefully the buses will either have a radio link to a control centre, or the drivers will be equipped with mobile phones. Note the use of the word "hopefully"....

[melmerby]

Birmingham used to have a (mis)guided busway back in the days when Mk II Metrobuses were new it was called "Tracline 65" and the modified Metrobuses were painted in a special livery to reflect the fact.

I believe it used some of the old tramway reservation in the middle of the dual carriageway.

 

See:tracline link

 

Keith

[trisonic]

Well I didn't start this thread in order for it to become an argument over the rights and wrongs of this - it's just an interesting fact of life!

Me? I'd have designated bus lanes on the A14..........

 

Best, Pete.

[roythebus]

Ah yes, the wonderful dome guided busway, another complete waste of taxpayers money. I worked, eventually, but it was designed that when the buses passed each other, they would knock their wing mirrors off, a very useful aid to driving buses!

 

You can read a lot more about the Cambridge guided busway in RouteOne bus trade magazine available online too. Even the bus industry is sceptical about the idea and concept of them.

[avonside1563]

In my opinion this is actually the type of busway application that might work. The major benefit of the guided bus is that it can run on normal roads so it is ideal for places where congestion is limited to a few hotspots that can be bypassed by sections of guideway. It is effectively a self-enforcing bus lane as nobody else can drive along it. It is also cheap in this situation because you need to spend very little on most of the route. A light rail equivalent would require track over the whole length and probably the more costly street track over much of it.

 

There are sections of bus lane in Chester using streets that are only accessible by buses, being controlled by bollards that lower for the approaching bus. The rest of the time the bus uses dedicated bus lanes or normal roads. When I visit Chester I use the park and ride scheme which takes these routes and it's much faster than trying to drive in.

 

And not a guided busway in sight!

[Richard E]

There are sections of bus lane in Chester using streets that are only accessible by buses, being controlled by bollards that lower for the approaching bus. The rest of the time the bus uses dedicated bus lanes or normal roads. When I visit Chester I use the park and ride scheme which takes these routes and it's much faster than trying to drive in.

 

And not a guided busway in sight!

And Cambridge has plenty of these rising bollards as well. Been one or two nasty accidents where folk have tried driving through by tailgating a bus or taxi!

 

They are spreading as well, York has some, so does Peterborough ......

 

 

 

[stewartingram]

And Cambridge has plenty of these rising bollards as well. Been one or two nasty accidents where folk have tried driving through by tailgating a bus or taxi!

 

They are spreading as well, York has some, so does Peterborough ......

Be cheaper to lay some explosive down, bit like a big railway detonator...

[QWILPEN]

And Cambridge has plenty of these rising bollards as well. Been one or two nasty accidents where folk have tried driving through by tailgating a bus or taxi!

 

They are spreading as well, York has some, so does Peterborough ......

 

 

 

 

Ahhh the wonderful raising bollard when ever i'm feeling a bit low a quick look at these fools on youtube makes the world look wonderful again

 

 

more

[radagast]

 

 

There was an experiment running on the (two-lane) M42 doing just that - not sure if it has now finished.

 

When on the M42 a couple of weeks ago, I noticed that the word "Trial" on the "Journey Time Trial" signs had been plated over

- I took that to mean that the experiment had finished and conclusions duly reached!

[Edwin_m]

That sounds like good news. I've never understood why some truck drivers fail to realise that their vehicles will slow down when they get to a hill so they shouldn't overtake in such places. Maybe we should just have the truck overtaking bans on hilly parts of two-lane dual carriageways and allow them to overtake on the level parts.

[roythebus]

Being in the bus industry, the bus operators are even more sceptical of guided busways. The capital cost of the additional equipment is horrendous, and lowers the resale value of the vehicles once they're past their first sell-by date. It also lowers even further the fuel economy of such vehicles as all the equipment uses more electricity which it turn has to be generated by the bus' diesel engine.

[melmerby]

How about this as an alternative:

 

Ro-Railer

 

A normal bus with rail wheels, guided (obviously) when on rails but can drive through towns and villages when needed without any extra infrastructure.

 

Keith

[trisonic]

How about this as an alternative:

 

Ro-Railer

 

A normal bus with rail wheels, guided (obviously) when on rails but can drive through towns and villages when needed without any extra infrastructure.

 

Keith

 

 

Useful if the infrastructure is still in place - which wasn't the case around Cambridge.

 

Best, Pete.

 

 

 

[Edwin_m]

Being in the bus industry, the bus operators are even more sceptical of guided busways. The capital cost of the additional equipment is horrendous, and lowers the resale value of the vehicles once they're past their first sell-by date. It also lowers even further the fuel economy of such vehicles as all the equipment uses more electricity which it turn has to be generated by the bus' diesel engine.

 

When it was demonstrated to me in Leeds it (the Cambridge type) was purely a mechanical system, a lateral guidewheel ahead of the front wheel which simply steered the bus as necessary. Does this indeed use electric power (in a later version? perhaps via the power steering servo?) or are you referring to the wire-guided version that was to be used at the Dome?