Certificate in Railway History

[PhilEakins]

I just missed out on joining this year's cohort for the York University's/NRM provided Certificate in Railway History by Distance Learning. I am certainly registering for next year, but I wonder if anyone here is/has taken it and can give me some advance guidance?

 

Thanks.

 

Phil

[Kenton]

I'm just ignorant - I didn't even know such a thing existed - If I had the time I'd be interested.

(can you get a cheap loan for the course/tuition fees?)

[Adam]

I'm just ignorant - I didn't even know such a thing existed - If I had the time I'd be interested.

(can you get a cheap loan for the course/tuition fees?)

 

Details here: http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/irs/

 

The course is part of the university's Institute of Railway Studies and, like the University in general, is well regarded. As to whether you could get an affordable loan, I'll refrain from commenting, beyond noting that funding for part-time and mature students in HE is somewhat thin on the ground... That said, I note that the Institute itself offers a couple of small bursaries (one sponsored by the HMRS).

 

Adam

[JohnR]

Gob smacked that the certificate costs £1200! Ouch!

[PhilEakins]

Gob smacked that the certificate costs £1200! Ouch!

 

Er - no. That's £1200 per year, and it's a two year course!

 

Phil

[LH&JC]

Makes my degree look pricey though. But what can you do with a Certificate in railway history? Apart from add it to your signiture on forums of course!

[Oldddudders]

Sounds like a really interesting sort of course for someone with a little cash in his/her pocket - and time to spare. The sort of thing that Evening Institutes, aka Night Schools, do/did on a more local basis in more general subjects.

 

Having managed to avoid formal education since leaving school, other than on-job and residential-type courses by my employer, I was a bit miffed about a decade ago when someone got a bee in their bonnet about Quality, and did a deal with a College Company (what? a College Company?) to get a whole heap of the middle and senior managers to take a correspondence course. It was directed towards activities in the firm, of course, and was a form of internal quality review. I hated doing it, and the certificate went straight in the bin!

[The Stationmaster]

Sounds like a really interesting sort of course for someone with a little cash in his/her pocket - and time to spare. The sort of thing that Evening Institutes, aka Night Schools, do/did on a more local basis in more general subjects.

 

Having managed to avoid formal education since leaving school, other than on-job and residential-type courses by my employer, I was a bit miffed about a decade ago when someone got a bee in their bonnet about Quality, and did a deal with a College Company (what? a College Company?) to get a whole heap of the middle and senior managers to take a correspondence course. It was directed towards activities in the firm, of course, and was a form of internal quality review. I hated doing it, and the certificate went straight in the bin!

 

Crikey Ian, he only 'quality' courses I got involved with were conducted on a one week residential basis in rather nice hotels. And as my team were too big for a single course I had to lead the next level down with them on two separate courses. (then go back and write up all our procedures ).

[Guest Max Stafford]

Makes my degree look pricey though. But what can you do with a Certificate in railway history? Apart from add it to your signiture on forums of course!

 

My own thoughts. Undoubtedly this would be an interesting and enjoyable course which would at least give you some kind of insight to the world of academia, but could it seriously be of any practical value?

 

Dave.

[Oldddudders]

My own thoughts. Undoubtedly this would be an interesting and enjoyable course which would at least give you some kind of insight to the world of academia, but could it seriously be of any practical value?

One of the courses I didn't bother with was the Chartered Institute of Transport, which all sorts of people in BR, and sundry transport organisations in the former Empire, took terribly seriously. I am not aware that I ever lost a promotion as a result. Indeed, John Palette, then GM at Waterloo, subsequently Director, Personnel at BRB, told me that only if I was up against an equal candidate with the CIT membership might I ever have a problem. Now the industry is much more diverse, I suspect I'd have more of a problem, perhaps.

 

On the other hand, if you were looking at a job at York, or maybe some other museum or similarly history-based job, this certificate might make you the best candidate? I suspect many RMWebbers would regard the learning as useful, the cert rather less so.

[Kenton]

Details here: http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/irs/

Thanks, interesting, especially as a part-time course, keep the brain active sort of thing.

 

Makes my degree look pricey though. But what can you do with a Certificate in railway history? Apart from add it to your signiture on forums of course!

I was wondering what use it would be for someone rapidly approaching retirement and already with too many letters after his name

... and the first person who says go into teaching can whistle.

 

I guess it must be aimed at someone, though other than academics, I wonder how/if it would have any real recognisable value.

[coachmann]

Good luck to the people who get certificates but I do wonder if they are a substitute for talent and ideas. I left art school art in 1958 armed with a GCE and ULCI plus an award, but prospective employers were interested in my work and ideas, not certificates. What the 3 years in art school did was broaden my horizons. It was up to me to wise up, which I did by working for myself eventually.

 

 

[Phil Traxson]

Good luck to the people who get certificates but I do wonder if they are a substitute for talent and ideas. I left art school art in 1958 armed with a GCE and ULCI plus an award, but prospective employers were interested in my work and ideas, not certificates. What the 3 years in art school did was broaden my horizons. It was up to me to wise up, which I did by working for myself eventually.

 

I'm afraid nowadays pieces of paper and the ability to shift the blame to someone else seem to be all important, the ability to do the job is way down the list, just above being able to spell and converse in decent english. (mmm, maybe this should be in the Grumpies section!)

 

Phil T.

[Oldddudders]

Good luck to the people who get certificates but I do wonder if they are a substitute for talent and ideas. I left art school art in 1958 armed with a GCE and ULCI plus an award, but prospective employers were interested in my work and ideas, not certificates. What the 3 years in art school did was broaden my horizons. It was up to me to wise up, which I did by working for myself eventually.

 

I'm afraid nowadays pieces of paper and the ability to shift the blame to someone else seem to be all important, the ability to do the job is way down the list, just above being able to spell and converse in decent english. (mmm, maybe this should be in the Grumpies section!)

 

Phil T.

You're both right. When I left school in 1966, about half the kids in my year went into higher education, mainly Uni or Colleges of Advanced Technology (aka Advanced Tomfoolery!). But I was at a fairly decent Surrey grammar school, and those at Secondary Modern schools in those days were lucky if they even had a sixth form. A very senior railwayman, who retired a few years back after building the first stage of CTRL, certainly had no degree - he and I had joined BR about the same time. Today a much higher % of kids go to college or Uni and end up with some sort of degree - even if it's Media Studies - there now being many more legit places you can earn one. In a world short on jobs, long on applicants, getting an interview without one is considerably more difficult today. And, yes, I too was often shocked when I found very ordinary younger colleagues had degrees - even a doctorate!

[The Stationmaster]

You're both right. When I left school in 1966, about half the kids in my year went into higher education, mainly Uni or Colleges of Advanced Technology (aka Advanced Tomfoolery!). But I was at a fairly decent Surrey grammar school, and those at Secondary Modern schools in those days were lucky if they even had a sixth form. A very senior railwayman, who retired a few years back after building the first stage of CTRL, certainly had no degree - he and I had joined BR about the same time. Today a much higher % of kids go to college or Uni and end up with some sort of degree - even if it's Media Studies - there now being many more legit places you can earn one. In a world short on jobs, long on applicants, getting an interview without one is considerably more difficult today. And, yes, I too was often shocked when I found very ordinary younger colleagues had degrees - even a doctorate!

 

When I arrived in my final bit of BR employment my boss very seriously explained to me 'that a lot of people around us have university degrees' as if it was something to be both wary of and in awe of. Seemed to me to make virtually no difference at all - the ownership' of a degree, especially nowadays, doesn't in some cases seem to confirm anything 'special' about the person and, no doubt like many others, I have come across many folk without a degree who are just as bright as some of those with one, and some who are considerably brighter.

 

It's not so much the education and pieces of paper as what you make of those opportunities you do get and your ability to use what you have learnt. BR, I think, used, to pretty good in that respect as it was possible to advance from fairly humble beginnings to senior positions, being respected for what you could do and do the bits of paper to your name (except in some engineering disciplines where technical training was essential).

 

BTW I'm not against degrees - my offspring seem to be in the habit of collecting them, but in today's market that isn't much help in getting a job.

[Kenton]

You just cannot get away from the fact that for some occupations a degree and often a higher degree is essential.

 

I would for example be very wary of having a non-graduate in medicine perform some operation on me - or walking on a bridge built by someone that had received no formal engineering qualification.

 

 

However there seems to me to be an awful lot of "degrees" handed out these days that are little more than pieces of paper confirming time served in a higher education institution (some of whom I have similar doubts on their training ability). I am not saying that the degree is totally worthless just that the distinction between degrees has become blurred.

 

As an employer it has just become one of those sifting tools (no degree -> reject pile) ... I think it may be fast becoming (only 1 degree -> reject pile).

 

It used to be that only perhaps 10% of school leavers have A levels now it seems that youngsters are pushed to stay on for A levels and attaining 3-6 of them. Targets of 50% taking a degree (any degree) do not help.

 

Though in the end, I wonder, just how many of us use our degrees in our current job, and when not used how much of all that learning is forgotten?

I have had many "jobs" over my working life and the ability to move into them has really been down to the ability to pick up a book and learn (if that has ultimately required a "certificate" then so be it, it hasn't always, but I thank my first spell in university for giving me that ability to learn. Even if I have forgotten probably 95% of what was taught.

[Oldddudders]

BR, I think, used, to pretty good in that respect as it was possible to advance from fairly humble beginnings to senior positions, being respected for what you could do and do the bits of paper to your name (except in some engineering disciplines where technical training was essential).

My take exactly. In the late '60s, the newly-appointed Divisional Movements Manager on Central Division (Brighton Main Line, basically) had started his career as an engine cleaner at Fratton. He was well able to do the job utterly professionally, and went on to further, deserved, promotion. As you say, engineers were unlikely to get much beyond junior-middle manager level without either a degree or Chartered status, certainly in the civils. I understand that the status is necessary inter alia for you to give technical evidence in a court of law, and the new embryo TOCs in the early 90s had to have at least one such person on the Infrastructure side.

 

Going back to my earlier remarks about graduates, one conspicuous exception to the indifferent perfomance of some was when I found myself working next to people in Operational Research. These were "bright young people" by any yardstick, several being Oxbridge graduates, and all having second degrees in Op Research, almost invariably from Lancaster. These "kids" as they seemed to me, twice their age, could take your operational problem, model it on computer, and then develop programmes to help you get the best out of things. The word "heuristic" comes to mind, and one of their number - a Class 37 freak! - seemed to have one heuristic named after him. I loved them, even though I couldn't begin to understand what they did or how they did it - their energy was infectious. They were very successful in selling their services among TOCs and others, too.

[Kris]

 

I would for example be very wary of having a non-graduate in medicine perform some operation on me - or walking on a bridge built by someone that had received no formal engineering qualification.

 

 

The medical bit I quite understand but I suspect that there are hundreds of older bridges in the UK that have not been designed by people with formal engineering qualifications, and most likely built by illiterate labourers . (Obviously these will now have been looked at by people with qualifications). I don't think that Brunel had any formal engineering qualifications, learning much through an apprenticeship.

 

Going back to the Certificate in Railway History. I assume that the qualification gained here is a certificate in higher education, the same that is gained by someone who completes the first year of a degree course but does not continue to study further. I can only imagine that the areas this qualification would lead to would be very limited, and in some ways this qualification could be considered alongside other "Mickey Mouse" courses found at universities and colleges. This is not to say that the study for this qualification would not be of interest though.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

Going back to the Certificate in Railway History. I assume that the qualification gained here is a certificate in higher education, the same that is gained by someone who completes the first year of a degree course but does not continue to study further. I can only imagine that the areas this qualification would lead to would be very limited, and in some ways this qualification could be considered alongside other "Mickey Mouse" courses found at universities and colleges. This is not to say that the study for this qualification would not be of interest though.

 

Might be very interesting but what use would it serve except possibly in academia? It certainly wouldn't have had much impact on me when interviewing someone except perhaps in confirming (or not) their ability to analyse information and produce a reasoned argument - useful in some posts but not so in many others.

 

Does anybody know anything about the course content beyond the very basic outline on the website?

[trisonic]

As it is in York - isn't this something for guys at the NRM to hang on their office walls? Or am I being too cynical?

 

 

Best, Pete.

[Adam]

Might be very interesting but what use would it serve except possibly in academia? It certainly wouldn't have had much impact on me when interviewing someone except perhaps in confirming (or not) their ability to analyse information and produce a reasoned argument - useful in some posts but not so in many others.

 

Does anybody know anything about the course content beyond the very basic outline on the website?

 

Frankly, it wouldn't be a whole lot of use in academia (if you want an 'academic' job, then the PhD is the pre-requisite these days), and is not, in any meaningful sense, a 'professional' qualification and shouldn't be regarded as such. Effectively, it's a course provided to reflect the desire of members of the public to explore their interest in a properly rigorous and coherent fashion. A more specialised version of a night school class might be a good analogy. Basically, it is there as part of the university's necessary outreach to the community. What this course is not (and apologies for picking on you Pete) is 'something for guys at the NRM to hang on their walls'. An MA in Museology, Archive Management or the like would be a sensible professional pre-requisite (as would an interest in railways), for the roles they occupy. More suitable courses for these purposes are also available from the Institute:

 

http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/irs/irshome/academic/academic.htm

 

Note that the University offers a range of courses through this institute which might be of interest (or, heaven forfend, use) to people in planning professions, 'hobby' historians (no pejorative intent there, they produce a lot of excellent research), for example, or simply undergraduate historians with a specific interest. The skills of evaluation of evidence, construction of argument and so on are transferable and useful. Many (but far from all) engineers and medics of my acquaintance would benefit from this sort of training (merely an observation). Obviously, the reason that York has this Institute is precisely because of the NRM and its extensive paper archive. In a similar fashion, it also has the Borthwick Institute devoted to the medieval and later records of York and its region (of which there are legion).

 

Wider discussions of formal education probably aren't helpful (we do enough of that after work - in a suitable venue) but it would be fair to point out that there were very, very few formal engineering courses available in Brunel's day - though Robert Stephenson, at least, was university educated (Edinburgh) and the rapid development of technical institutes in the nineteenth century attest to the need for such formal training at a more widespread level. A consequence of the development of precision engineering.

 

Adam

[Guest stuartp]

The medical bit I quite understand but I suspect that there are hundreds of older bridges in the UK that have not been designed by people with formal engineering qualifications, and most likely built by illiterate labourers . (

 

Trouble is, there were hundreds of others which fell down too. Likewise the history of cathedral building is littered with tales of woe about collapsing towers before people eventually learned by others' mistakes (he said, reaching back into the half-remembered murky depths of his degree course ...)

 

Effectively, it's a course provided to reflect the desire of members of the public to explore their interest in a properly rigorous and coherent fashion. A more specialised version of a night school class might be a good analogy. Basically, it is there as part of the university's necessary outreach to the community.

 

Quite. I joined the railway aged 18 because I failed my A-levels and flatly refused to re-sit them. Twenty years later I took a part time degree course through Sheffield Uni's excellent Institute for Lifelong Learning just to prove to myself that I could do it. I shove bits of paper round a desk for a living, my final year dissertation was on vernacular farm buildings. It was a hugely enjoyable 6 years and the experience was far more valuable (to me) than the bit of paper is ever likely to be.

[Guest dilbert]

Likewise the history of cathedral building is littered with tales of woe about collapsing towers before people eventually learned by others' mistakes (he said, reaching back into the half-remembered murky depths of his degree course ...)

 

But those architects/builders that applied the Pythagoras theorum and were equipped with a 13 knot /12 ft rope would have been on solid ground (even if a few centuries ago there was no real reference for a generally accurate standard measurement), the local measurements being accurate (most logically) would have sufficed - they would have created a.consistent and accurate right -angle.. dilbert

[edcayton]

It never ceases to amaze me that successive governments of all hues have continued to dupe the population by not only hiding the youth unemployment statistics, but have succeeded in persuading the lemming-like aforementioned youths to pay a fortune for the priviledge!

 

BTW, why does everyone take the p... out of media studies? Has anyone looked at the number of TV channels, radio stations, magazines and interweb-based thingies there are nowadays?

 

Ed

[Oldddudders]

BTW, why does everyone take the p... out of media studies? Has anyone looked at the number of TV channels, radio stations, magazines and interweb-based thingies there are nowadays?

As one who shares a house with a 42" tv, 3 hard-drive DVD recorders, and has two satellite dishes connected by quad-LNB, but seldom watches anything - Deb watches tenaciously on my behalf - I think I am vaguely aware of just how much media there is in C21. I am also under the impression that the number of graduates with Media Studies degrees in any year far, far outstrips the employment opportunities that such a degree might provide. It just sounds like a course that is a bit jollier than - say - Mediaeval Latin or similar, but reality hits harder when you come to try to use it, perhaps.