Tinsley Yard

[porkie]

Ive just watched some old vintage footage about tinsley yard, I didnt even know computers were around back then...

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dZIFKVEFlI&playnext_from=QL&feature=bf_play&playnext=1

[woodenhead]

But is even this new facility a white elephant dreamt up before the recession?

 

I know there is still limited steel traffic, but anything serve the distribution warehousing?

[AMJ]

There is an interesting BTF on one of the DVD's in the box set showing the punched tape computer control of one hump yard. I think that there is also some footage of the radio telephone in use in the cab of the shunting loco.

[Andy Siddall]

Thanks for posting the video. I had probably seen it before but had forgotten it. Sadly when I started visiting Tinsley in my late teens the hump had closed a couple of years earlier and so I only had the pleasure of the TMD to while the hours away after a 10 mile bike ride to get there.

 

Barrow Hill was only 1 mile from home but by then only had the same old 20/56/58 locos there all the time until that shed went.

 

The area around Sheffield and Chesterfield was a bit of a mecca for busy freight even in the late 80's.

 

I must sometime get around to posting some pics from the time, although they were scanned when scanner technology was new so are not the best quality.

 

Anyway, thanks for bringing back some wonderful memories.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[Jenny Emily]

Peering down out of the window of the satellite courtesy of Google Earth, I see that the control tower is still there (though somewhat dilapidated). Is this structure grade listed, or would the reason it survives be more down to it being too much money to demolish it if the structure is still sound?

 

The computer control in the video is basic by modern standards, but answered a question I had about how the system knew where to put each wagon. It must have been very advanced in its day. If the yards had survived, I suspect it would have been upgraded to be done by handheld barcode scanners with labels on each wagon and be fed directly to a small computer running a version of Windows XP no doubt.

[jamie92208]

I don't know about Tinsley but I had a tour of Kingmoor in 1966 when it was in full use. That had a system of computer control of the point setting and retarders I seem to recall. As far as I can remember from this distance in time the data for each train was recorded when the train arrived in the receeption sidings. This was then typed onto I think punched tape which was then fed into the system. Some sort of printout was given to the shunters who had to uncouple the wagins into cuts and there was some sort of communication system with the loco drivers pushing the cuts over the hump. I can't rmember if this was lights or radio. There was still some sort of manual supervision but I think that the point setting was certainly done by the machine. This was of course pre TOPS. As a 13 year old I was most impressed and came back with a piece of opunbched tape as a souvenier. (As an aside I was on a North West ranger for £1.2s.6d which gave me the freedom of the area between Skipton, Southport and Gretna for a week as wasn't 14 till later that year.

[Jenny Emily]

I seem to recall that the class 13s had some kind of in-cab signalling system - quite handy given the distance the locomotive actually was from the hump when it first started pushing the train over.

[Kris]

The computer control in the video is basic by modern standards, but answered a question I had about how the system knew where to put each wagon. It must have been very advanced in its day. If the yards had survived, I suspect it would have been upgraded to be done by handheld barcode scanners with labels on each wagon and be fed directly to a small computer running a version of Windows XP no doubt.

 

I suspect that rather than hand held scanners there would have been a large stationary unit at the entrance to the sidings scanning the wagons as they came in. If this could have been coupled to some form of auto uncoupling / re-coupling then there would have been very little need to have any people walking about in the yard, bet this would have pleased the H & S people.

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

I suspect that rather than hand held scanners there would have been a large stationary unit at the entrance to the sidings scanning the wagons as they came in. If this could have been coupled to some form of auto uncoupling / re-coupling then there would have been very little need to have any people walking about in the yard, bet this would have pleased the H & S people.

 

And if that had been designed by anyone with an interest in modelling the auto coupler would no doubt have involved a big stick hanging down with a magnet on the end that stabbed about until it latched onto a coupling.

[griffgriff]

I suspect that rather than hand held scanners there would have been a large stationary unit at the entrance to the sidings scanning the wagons as they came in. If this could have been coupled to some form of auto uncoupling / re-coupling then there would have been very little need to have any people walking about in the yard, bet this would have pleased the H & S people.

 

You would be right... the 'input' was made on a ADO teleprinter type machine housed in a small GRP hut at the throat of the yard - the hut being very similar to the ticket inspector/ toll booth/ car park structure that Uncle Bachy has produced in their Scenecraft range...layout idea methinks

 

Edit It's in the video - at about 1:40

[Enterprisingwestern]

I seem to recall that the class 13s had some kind of in-cab signalling system - quite handy given the distance the locomotive actually was from the hump when it first started pushing the train over.

 

Lights system to tell the driver to speed up/slow down/start/stop.

[Jenny Emily]

You would be right... the 'input' was made on a ADO teleprinter type machine housed in a small GRP hut at the throat of the yard - the hut being very similar to the ticket inspector/ toll booth/ car park structure that Uncle Bachy has produced in their Scenecraft range...layout idea methinks

 

Edit It's in the video - at about 1:40

 

We were surmising how the system might have got upgraded had it survived into the 1990s. Presumably barcode scanners and cheaper computer systems would have made the yards cheaper to run. Maybe the computer revolution came just ten years too late to save them.

 

What would it take to make wagonload freight financially viable? Road hauliers manage it (though that market is pretty cut-throat). I suppose if a customer wasn't wanting everything yesterday, then a wagon could drift through the system over a week fairly cost effectively. It's all this "we need everything delivered just-in-time" nonesense that's made things too uneconomical; the railway can't so easily do that.

[rob D2]

I don't think wagon load would ever be viable again to be honest.I know DBS hangs on in there but there's not alot left.

We have all seen pictures of blue diesels running with one or two wagons on a "trip" and this is the major problem I think - tying up expensive resources for a couple of wagons. Not to mention keeping up the infrastructure on lightly used freight only branches.

 

Sad to say the future is bulk - especially the growth of intermodal where the potential Is greatest.

[woodenhead]

What would it take to make wagonload freight financially viable? Road hauliers manage it (though that market is pretty cut-throat). I suppose if a customer wasn't wanting everything yesterday, then a wagon could drift through the system over a week fairly cost effectively. It's all this "we need everything delivered just-in-time" nonesense that's made things too uneconomical; the railway can't so easily do that.

 

'Just in Time' is not about customer service/wanting things yesterday, it's about lean stocking with merchandise held centrally and sent to customer points when stock levels fall below a set level or the sales systems forecast a rise in demand. These systems are very sophisticated based on previous demand/buying habits so you can see local stock levels rise as temporary rises in demand are predicted. For the shops it means more space is devoted to selling and the content of the selling space can be adjusted according to predicted demand. The road distribution companies and the big retailers have a massive distribution network devoted to this built up over years of experience. To see how important this network is to our lives, just watch how the supermarkets can struggle to fill shelves when it snows, everyone panic buys and stocks can't be delivered from the central points fast enough or simply get snowed in.

 

Wagonload's problem was that the rail infrastructure was no longer central to manufacture, so in order to deliver goods by rail from the manufacturer to the point of sale invariably involved at least two lorry loads, the time spent loading/unloading from from lorry to wagon to lorry is time consuming and inefficient as the load could be more than halfway to it's destination on the road before it had even left the starting rail point. Add to that the indirect subsidies given to road transport and rail could not compete. Where rail has an advantage is longer distance bulk distribution so flows from the south east/midlands to Scotland work because there is sufficient merchandise travelling the route to warrant a train, flows from Europe will also become more common as the Channel Tunnel charging structure becomes competitive and I believe DB will drive this through for both passengers and freight opening up all sorts of opportunities in the coming years.

 

Rail will have a continuing place in the distribution of goods but it's role will develop around long distance intermodal and bulk, there may be some hub and spoke distribution services for mail/supermarkets into city centres provided the rail companies and the distributors can find the right model.

[Jenny Emily]

You mention the Channel tunnel, and a thought occurs to me that could wagonload freight become economical again if wagonloads are coming and going throughout Europe and beyond? Even with transhipment time/costs at either end, I'm sure freight could get from Catanzaro (southern Italy) to Glasgow by rail still quicker and cheaper than by road. That in itself could spark a rejuvination of railfreight. It's more likely though that containerisation will be the way loads are moved if they have to go between different modes of transport. This way transhipment is easy between road/rail/sea and quicker.

 

The biggest stumbling block to the UK is the loading gauge.

[Fat Controller]

You mention the Channel tunnel, and a thought occurs to me that could wagonload freight become economical again if wagonloads are coming and going throughout Europe and beyond? Even with transhipment time/costs at either end, I'm sure freight could get from Catanzaro (southern Italy) to Glasgow by rail still quicker and cheaper than by road. That in itself could spark a rejuvination of railfreight. It's more likely though that containerisation will be the way loads are moved if they have to go between different modes of transport. This way transhipment is easy between road/rail/sea and quicker.

 

The biggest stumbling block to the UK is the loading gauge.

Effectively, intermodal with either swap-bodies or ISO boxes is a form of 'wagon-load'; it's just that only the wagon body goes to the despatching and receiving points. Loading gauge doesn't have that much impact on intermodal traffic to and from Continental Europe; principle routes were rebuilt to accomodate swap-bodies in the UK prior to the tunnel opening, whilst much of Southern Italy has loading gauge issues that mean that Megafrets or similar have to be used there in any case.

It will be interesting to see what happens now that we have two companies (GBRf/Europorte and DBS/ECR) that can handle transits through France without having to rely on SNCF providing drivers and traction. It would be nice to see a return to the levels of traffic of 15 years ago, when there were sometimes ten trains to and from Italy per day via the tunnel, without those to other destinations.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Seen this video a couple of times and never fails to impress me.

 

It's a shame it was run down like that over the years.

 

Simon

[griffgriff]

We were surmising how the system might have got upgraded had it survived into the 1990s. Presumably barcode scanners and cheaper computer systems would have made the yards cheaper to run. Maybe the computer revolution came just ten years too late to save them.

 

What would it take to make wagonload freight financially viable? Road hauliers manage it (though that market is pretty cut-throat). I suppose if a customer wasn't wanting everything yesterday, then a wagon could drift through the system over a week fairly cost effectively. It's all this "we need everything delivered just-in-time" nonesense that's made things too uneconomical; the railway can't so easily do that.

 

 

I'm afraid that at the moment (and I hate to say it) road transport is more economic as rail. There was a fly on the wall documentary on the 'Stobart' operation - they raced a lorry against 'LessCO2' train - the lorry won, so time wise the road wins. They also had some nearly empty trailers turning a profit (well I'm guessing as it was worth their while they must have been turning a profit - I was really surprised how empty some of those trucks were ) so road wins on economics.

 

The question is how fair, or rather how right is the pricing of freight transport?

[woodenhead]

I believe at the moment some of the domestic intermodal traffic like the less CO2 train and the barges carrying wine up the Manchester ship canal are a cost the big supermarkets can stand in order to gain green credentials which in marketing is very important these days.

 

Create a very CO2 efficient lorry and watch the trains dry up.

 

I wonder how much track access charges affect competitiveness, for example are DB paying for a proportion of the upgrades to the WCML that Virgin are the main beneficiary of.

[admiles]

I have a fair bit of experience in the freight industry and my company has used rail for the movement

on containers for many years. Sadly the greatest stumbling block to moving containerised cargo by rail

(certainly in this country) is the sheer unreliablilty of it.

 

While price-wise rail can complete fairly well over longer distances it's lack of flexibility badly hampers it. We used road and rail for a large customer in the North West and kept detailed performance logs for two years. On-time deliveries for road were about 82% (from memory) compared to a staggering 35% for rail.

 

These days customers just won't accept this level of failed/late deliveries and rightly so. Sorry to say but this is rail's first major hurdle to cross. There is certainly a huge amount of container/intermodal traffic out there to be won from road but many in the industry have had such poor performance they can't (not won't) use rail.

 

From a personal point of view I'd love to route more cargo by rail but from a professional point of view it would be financial suicide.