Spelling, punctuation and handwriting

[John_Hughes]

I suppose it is fitting that the greengrocer's apostrophe should afflict a shop which sells fresh fruit and veg.

 

 

Um - shouldn't that be greengrocers' apostrophe?

 

(And this isn't even my first language!)

[Kenton]

The rule in this case being that the apostrophe must not be used with the possessive of pronouns. For example, one might say "Freda's hat", but not "her's hat". "The locomotive's cab" but not "It's cab". Mind you, I always get that one right because I can still hear my old primary school teacher bellowing in my ear: "Nothing can belong to it!!!" Sometimes these old teaching methods are more effective...

You are quite correct in terms of that rule. But that does not make it a logical rule for someone learning the language.

If Fred can have a possession and even a locomotive then why not "it" or "I" or even "her/him/that" surely the more logical rule would be to abolish the apostrophe and to use the possibly more correct phrase. "the hat of Fred" or the "cab of the locomotive", "the weather during Monday", "the end of it"

[John B]

 

The Americans have a lot to blame for our spelling. Especially the misuse of 'z'. Particularly as the default spell checker is US english. But again, I don't really care that much except when the words have totally different meaning (pavement, boot, ...), though even then the british english is not without its duplication of words with different meanings.

 

Actually, the Americans are not to blame for the z in "ization" rather than "isation". The use of the "z" dates from olde English, which was in use in England at the time the Pilgrim Fathers got on the boats to come over here - and derives from the original Greek. The use of "s" in "isation", etc, is a later, French-inspired derivation and a result of the EuropeaniSation of English.

 

If we must be xenophobic, Kenton, please be more careful as to where we direct it...

 

P.S. (tongue wedged firmly in cheek) - the last time I looked, a boot was something worn on the foot. So why does it make any sense as an appendage to a car? The use of the term trunk - as in a vessel in which to carry goods - makes far more sense...

[chrisf]

Um - shouldn't that be greengrocers' apostrophe?

 

(And this isn't even my first language!)

 

No, because I was referring to "the greengrocer" as a class of person. Thank you for giving some thought to this matter!.

 

Chris

[Welchester]

Careful: -ize is an acceptable form of spelling in British English - it is sometimes known as the "Oxford Spelling" as it is the form that the Oxford English Dictionary uses. Go back 200 years and you'll find it was commonplace here.

 

Just as '-ise' is the Cambridge spelling; '-ize' is one of the lost causes for which the older university is renowned.

 

I came across a delightful example of a spelling error leading to an error of meaning in David Wragg's book Commuter City: How the Railways Shaped London, which refers to "handsome cabs". Whilst some of them may well have been smart-looking, surely that can't be right?

There's the story of W.S. Gilbert, whom a stranger accosted and asked to call him a cab. "You're a four-wheeler," Gilbert retorted.

 

"What do you mean, sir?" replied the man in some puzzlement.

 

"Well, you asked me to call you a cab, and I could hardly call you Hansom."

[Peter Bedding]

I am regularly irritated by some of the examples of spelling and grammar seen on the forum, but I make effort to remember that some of the contributors may be dyslexic, or have other learning difficulties.

 

As to standards of behaviour, I recently made a (very) rare return visit to Lunnun; I had cause to use my bus pass and Oyster card on both crowded tube and bus, and can report that on nearly every occasion a young person gave me their seat. Also, someone had been round and cleaned the place since I left in 1993.

 

I think I might go again.

 

PB

[RFS]

If you've got one to spare, there is a pub near here in need of it. Large sign outside: "Buy two adults and get a child's meal free."

 

Martin.

 

And ditto for a pub near us which happily proclaims on a big sign outside that "Were the best!". Just goes to show what leaving out an apostrophe can do to the meaning...

[PhilJ W]

With respect to its and it's. I was always taught that the apostrophe took the place of the 'missing' letter, hence it's = it is.

[bluebottle]

I am regularly irritated by some of the examples of spelling and grammar seen on the forum, but I make effort to remember that some of the contributors may be dyslexic, or have other learning difficulties.

 

As to standards of behaviour, I recently made a (very) rare return visit to Lunnun; I had cause to use my bus pass and Oyster card on both crowded tube and bus, and can report that on nearly every occasion a young person gave me their seat. Also, someone had been round and cleaned the place since I left in 1993.

 

I think I might go again.

 

PB

 

Quite right, and if the matter is worth reading, I, for one am prepared to put up with (possibly excusable) poor communication skills. On the other hand, my daughter is dyslexic, which could have been a problem for the graphic artist she is. However, she has the intelligence and application to compensate by finding her own strategies to minimise mistakes and by diligently self-checking. I think we should all do the courtesy to those who may read what we write of making our written English as clear as we can.

 

I've noticed some signs of greater courtesy on buses here in Sheffield, too. People almost invariably thank the driver as they get off. A little thing like that lightens the stress of city travel for drivers and passengers alike.

[Bernard Lamb]

With respect to its and it's. I was always taught that the apostrophe took the place of the 'missing' letter, hence it's = it is.

Same here. I was also taught that it was rather bad form to use the apostrophe in this manner. It was, at one time, regarded as lazy and the correct method was to always write the words in their full form. I only know of one person who habitually does this. I was also taught that a preposition was the wrong word to end a sentence with.

A couple of signs recently seen near home.

Seen at a nursery. We now take babies. It makes a change from credit cards.

At a small holding. Free, Range Eggs. I dare not ask how much they are.

Bernard

[BoD]

I was also taught that a preposition was the wrong word to end a sentence with.

 

 

 

It is something up with which we will not put.

[coachmann]

On the other hand, my daughter is dyslexic, which could have been a problem for the graphic artist she is. However, she has the intelligence and application to compensate by finding her own strategies to minimise mistakes and by diligently self-checking. I think we should all do the courtesy to those who may read what we write of making our written English as clear as we can.

 

I agree, but then I'm bound to...

[Welly]

Anyone managed to improve their handwriting in adulthood? Mine has always been awful from my secondary school days and I find it frustrating for those times when I actually need to use a pen!

[298]

I was also taught that a preposition was the wrong word to end a sentence with.

 

And it's also wrong to start a sentence with "and".

[martin_wynne]

And it's also wrong to start a sentence with "and".

Who says so?

 

Let's have less of this "I was always taught" stuff. I was always taught to question everything I was taught.

 

A nice recursive conundrum there.

 

And that was a sentence without a verb.

 

[coachmann]

I agree there Martin. Education is the basic preparation. I found it's the things 'they' don't teach you that are probably the most useful in life. Lateral-thinking for one. Street-awareness for another.

 

 

And so onto the next argument...

[Steve K]

Whilst many of us get frustrated at the decline in spelling, grammar and punctuation standards, the main issue on RMWeb is understanding that communication is a two-way process. It's no good if the writer understands what he (thinks he) wrote perfectly if the reader can't then make head nor tail of it. This applies especially to 'text speak' (for want of a generic term), and in some cases where this has been used for OPs in topics we have to pre-approve, the post has been simply binned. Same goes for 'streams of consciousness' outpourings without punctuation or paragraphs.

While I'm slightly obsessive about spelling in my own posts (even going so far as to edit a months-old post if I spot an embarrassing typo), I don't spend too much time worrying about what others have written, as long as the sense is clear. Yes, I might raise a sardonic eyebrow when someone confuses "their", "they're" and "there", or uses "of" as a verb (OK, I admit it, that last one does my head in!), but I'm not a grammar facsist by any means.

 

However, Mod6 is spot on with his talk of communication and understanding. On the internet, we can't see the person we're conversing with, and so the only clue to the writer's meaning is the series of letters on the screen. Those who write with no attempt at punctuation or syntax therefore do themselves no favours at all. Of course, plenty of people have problems with spelling (though a simple application of a spell-checker will sort out most errors), but I suspect that a lot of the stream-of-consciousness type of posting is the result of laziness, pure and simple.

 

Still, life's too short to get too het up about it all. However, may I make a final plea: please make sure thread titles are spelled correctly, if nothing else. It's bad enough having to trawl through all threads with the word "gauge" in them, for instance, without having to search for "guage" as well!

[kiltedsignaller]

But why? We cannot even agree on our own pronunciations

For example how do you pronounce

Bath - is it as in 'a'pple or is it as in 'aut'omobile

scone - as in 'on' or as in 'own' and many other examples across engligh dialects.

Berkshire ? as in "bark" or as in "berk" ...

 

I pronounce scone Scoon. It's just up the road from Perth.

[Major Clanger]

And it's also wrong to start a sentence with "and".

 

If it was good enough for William Blake, it's good enough for me.

 

And did those feet in ancient time etc.

[Guest dilbert]

Anyone managed to improve their handwriting in adulthood? Mine has always been awful from my secondary school days and I find it frustrating for those times when I actually need to use a pen!

 

No way - laziness is also a sign of intelligence - let someone else decipher the message (eg a handwritten prescription by a doctor that has to be correctly supplied by a pharmacist)...dilbert

[Fenman]

Anyone managed to improve their handwriting in adulthood? Mine has always been awful from my secondary school days and I find it frustrating for those times when I actually need to use a pen!

 

Mine wasn't great until I bought a fountain pen with an italic nib, which forced me to write slower. I gave it up years ago, but fortunately the improvement remains.

 

Paul

[chrisf]

Two matters arising:

 

1. A Level history ruined my handwriting. Mr Jamieson, my history teacher, could say a lot in 40 minutes and it was quite a challenge to take it down more or less verbatim. Sadly I never learned shorthand, though if you could see my handwritng you would not think so.

 

2. I had good English teachers too. I was taught that there are two types of conjunction. The co-ordinating conjunction has the function of joining two sentences together and it is incorrect grammar to use them at the start of a sentence. The five co-ordinating conjunctions are "and", "but", "or", "yet" and "still". The mnemonic ABOYS is handy for remembering them. I accept that the use of these words to begin a sentence is widespread but that does not mean that it is right. The other type of conjunction is the subordinating, by the way.

 

I almost apologised for attention to detail but as that is supposed to be one of the qualities of a modeller I thought better of it.

 

Chris

[Edwin_m]

"Under way" is two words.

 

Perhaps more importantly, "every day" (daily) is not the same as "everyday" (routine or boring). My local Hungry Harvester hsa a sign saying "Food Served Everyday" which is actually quite accurate.

 

Many many times have I seen business cards and CVs proclaiming that someone is a "Principle Consultant"? Fair enough if I am to consult them about moral or theoretical matters, but if they boss the Senior Consultants around that makes them a Principal Consultant.

 

And what about the difference between regular and frequent? The stations with the most regular train services in the UK are Denton and Reddish South, each train exactly one week after the last one except when Christmas falls on a Friday or Saturday. By the way that's railway stations not train stations.

[Ozexpatriate]

Do I care? No, not really. With the caveat that the text written should be understandable by those to whom it is directed, the rest becomes very unimportant and merely one group/generation/population view on how things should be done. All language evolves in this way.

 

The Americans have a lot to blame for our spelling. Especially the misuse of 'z'. Particularly as the default spell checker is US english. But again, I don't really care that much except when the words have totally different meaning (pavement, boot, ...), though even then the british english is not without its duplication of words with different meanings.

 

I think the point of remembering who the "Americans" actually were is well-brought-up elsewhere. From my understanding many of them came from places like Norfolk, Devon and Somerset. I find that people on both sides of the pond tend to forget where they all came from and how they have more in common than where they differ.

 

Sorry Kenton but I do care, the american english now creeping into our everyday spelling really gets my goat ie center for centre. We have adopted too many american ideas already and I draw the line at modifyiny our spelling. However, having just returned from a holiday in the US, I can now understand why. How they allegedly landed on the moon I will never know.

And whats this brought instead of bought. By the way my English master always said you should not start a sentence with and.

 

Pete

 

One must be careful in a critique of grammar not to commit the same sins one points out in others. One would think that proper capitalization and use of apostrophes, not to mention spelling is essential. It just goes to show how hard it really is and how helpful spell checkers really are.

 

What's wrong with brought and bought?

I bought some milk at the shop.

I brought my cricket bat to the nets.

 

However "center " is the most logical spelling choice, rather than using the heavily French influenced "centre" - interesting to note that the verb "to enter" in English is not spelt as "to entre".

 

One of the difficulties of the English language relates to the number of exceptions to a standard rule ; dictation tests (do they still exist ?) bear this out ...

 

How would you write the following as pronounced .....?

 

rough

cough

though

trough

through

plough

dough

tough

bough

enough

 

(and there are several others words in the same vein....)

Dilbert, thank you for this observation. I once supervised a Finnish gentleman. (Actually I still do, but not the same one.) Despite being someone of learning and intellect, he could not absorb the subtlties of anything ending in -ough, along with some similar words ending in -ow.

 

row (argue) and

row (a boat) come to mind, similarly:

bow (on a boat) and

bow (in a girl's hair) equivalently so.

 

Then of course there is the proper pronunciation of the West Country "Rough Tor".

 

As for American spellings, I am resigned to them. I was taught British English, but I live and work in the United States. (In a city named Portland, no less.) As such, American spellings are unnatural for me but I am forced to use them. Many so-called American spellings (as pointed out elsewhere in this thread) are inherited spellings that have since changed in Britain. Some of the others are a result of a 19th century movement to reform spelling. Noah Webster and his lexicographical ark are part of this movement. Objectively (dare I admit it) these spellings are usually an improvement. Do we really really need the "u" in colour, neighbour, labour, etc to impart meaning?

 

I am all for correctness in grammar, punctuation and spelling but British/American dissent over spelling is a hobby horse compared with the core issue. These differences don't effect the ability to communicate clearly - which is what common spelling is all about anyway.

[Adrian]

One must be careful in a critique of grammar not to commit the same sins one points out in others.

A recognized phenomenon known as Muphry's Law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law