NRM+

[t-b-g]

There have been a few comments about this on another thread but I think it deserves one all to itself!

 

Have people seen the plans for the redevelopment and what do they think of them? For my part I will go from being a bit of a fan of the NRM to not wanting any more to do with the place!

 

One of only two places in the country where people can experience the sight of locos in a shed, round a turntable (and the only one open most days) and that view is to be swept away to make room for displays showing the impact of railways on society or something similar.

 

I have no problem at all with the museum being made more interesing for youngsters but if this is the best way I would be most shocked! I wonder how many of those in charge at York have any background in railways at all because if they did, I am sure this idea (which has been in planning for at least 3 years now) would never have been approved.

 

I am hoping that somebody will now come forward and convince me that the plans are totally worthwhile and will improve the place!

[Sam Moss]

I share your view exactly

[Ohmisterporter]

Where can we see what is actually proposed? The NRM+ site is no help. I read on another forum that one of the engines is to be suspended from the ceiling! The NRM claim is that they are responding to requests from the public. I wonder how many of the public went in there and said they wanted an engine suspended from the ceiling? It sounds to me like a small group at the museum has decided what they want to do and hired a consulting company to "prove" that is what the public asked for. What happens in twenty years time when a different generation wants further changes? There is no end to all this, although eventually it will go back to where it started.

 

Geoff.

[Guest stuartp]

Linky

 

My bold.

 

Thousands of smaller Museum treasures including posters, tickets, pottery and uniforms will also be displayed, many of which have not been seen by the public before. And the usual large objects will still be there, including Mallard and the Japanese Bullet Train...

 

[Edit - evidently the plans are public, thanks !]

[S.A.C Martin]

Where can we see what is actually proposed? The NRM+ site is no help. I read on another forum that one of the engines is to be suspended from the ceiling! The NRM claim is that they are responding to requests from the public. I wonder how many of the public went in there and said they wanted an engine suspended from the ceiling? It sounds to me like a small group at the museum has decided what they want to do and hired a consulting company to "prove" that is what the public asked for. What happens in twenty years time when a different generation wants further changes? There is no end to all this, although eventually it will go back to where it started.

 

Geoff.

 

I have the plans that appear in STEAM RAILWAY, and The Railway Magazine in front of me, and the only thing that comes close to an engine "suspended from the ceiling" is the fact that the replica Rocket is to be placed on a new bridge, overlooking the Hall - which will form the new entrance to the museum.

 

Overall the plans look promising. I take the point that it's one of the last places to see engines around a turntable, but it feels right and natural to me that the museum should be more than just a collection of steam engines - museums are, after all, there to educate the populace, and whether we like it or not, we enthusiasts are not the majority of the general public.

 

There are plans in place to recreate a half roundhouse outside of the museum, in years to come, provided NRM+ comes to fruition, and earns its keep in due course.

 

My only caveat to the NRM would be to find some space, somewhere, in the main hall which tells of the role railways played during the second world war - a section, whose centrepiece could be the Bulleid Pacific Winston Churchill, restored to Southern Railway wartime livery, and on display as a tribute to the great man, and to the role the railways played in general.

 

They are not, however, removing the turntable completely, nor the rails on it, but they are putting flooring down around it to allow there to be more space to move around the hall. It looks as if it will remain functional in some capacity.

 

I think there's room for improvement, but it can only happen if people email the NRM, as I have done (and specifically, email Steve Davies, who is in charge now) and request - politely - for what they think would help the museum's exhibits overall. The pen is mightier than the sword, after all - even in digital form.

[ste234]

It would be nice to see a bit of change, I just hope they don't go down the almost typical museum route, with loads of stuff to read, which can be a bit much sometimes.

 

 

When I was younger we used to go to the NRM at least 3 times a year, purely because I loved the sheer size and dominance of being so close to Loco's such as Mallard, and going in it's cab made my year to say the least

 

I think I'd rather have the money put towards getting Flying Scotsman back in steam though!

Cheers,

Ste

 

 

[Ohmisterporter]

My quote about the engine suspended from the ceiling came from the following link. About halfway down the page.

 

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8465778.Train_enthusiast_questions_National_Railway_Museum_refurbishment_plans/

 

I don't have copies of the magazines so I can't comment on those. Regarding the turntable, is it not better to let future generations see the pit with all its dangers rather than an anaethasized H&S approved version? The whole point about getting the experience is that it was a dangerous environment. Aren't we lucky we don't have to do jobs like this today?

 

OK, a bit tongue in cheek with the last sentence.

 

Geoff.

[AMJ]

I wonder if NRM have seen the loco that is "suspended" at the NS museum in Utrecht. It's on a steel framwork and you walk under it - there is a balcony that you can look at the loco at the same height as it. This would eliminate the pit under the locos. All the NRM need to do is to also create a white knuckle ride like NS have - if you don't know what I mean you need to go to Utrecht!

 

Slightly OT the idea of displaying Wartime role that railways played used to be served by the, now closed, Army Transport museum in Beverley. This had WWI and WWII exhibits.

[DavidH]

I just hope they don't go down the almost typical museum route, with loads of stuff to read, which can be a bit much sometimes.

 

It's interesting reading your comment above - because my impression of modern museum make-overs is most of the stuff to read is "fluff". There's very little hard facts on display - a handful of "factlettes" (but not too much detail lest people get bored), lots of (real or imagined) "eye-witness" type stories to add colour to the display (but largely function to fill up space rather than add anything meaningful), a few artefacts with over-brief labels, and finally a series of questions presumably designed to get children interested but usually serving to make this grown-up feel thoroughly patronised (do the kids ever try to search out the answer? I don't have any so I have no idea).

 

It also goes without saying that a good proportion of the interactive touch-screen displays will be out of order at any one time ... (and even if they were working they would probably provide information written at the level of an 8-year old).

 

A modern museum to me often seems to be something that Douglas Adams might describe as being "designed to draw attention away from information rather than to provide it".

 

Some or all of this may be an exaggeration, but you might just get a hint of an impression that I'm not hugely impressed with many modern museums!

 

Whether or not this applies to NRM+ I can't tell, but the danger words are already being mentioned - interactive, multi-media, "experience" ... oh dear.

[The Stationmaster]

A pal who is Friend (of the museum) has said that many of those involved on a volunteer basis are not keen on the project and it seems that part of the reason for that is because it is coming more from a marketing viewpoint than an historical one with a lot of dumbing down of the museum presentation. What I saw back last year of stuff circulate to Friends etc did not exactly inspire me as being a good way to present history - but I only saw a couple of papers which had been passed round and there might have been much that I didn't see.

If they are presenting more to the visitor then I'm fully in favour. But if there is any element of dumbing-down then I fear it is yet another retrograde step in the presentation of an important part of our history. If they want to change the way large (loco etc) exhibits are presented while remaining objective about method then fair enough as long as they are not daft enough to destroy the turntable (reports above suggest they are not that daft) because they will no doubt want to change things again in x years time.

As for the museum representing a roundhouse type of steam running shed that is long past at York - the only resemblance it still bears to that, in an already vastly changed building, is that there is a turntable and radial roads fed from it; and any resemblance to any working roundhouse, including the one at York, requires a fairly massive leap of imagining and enough 'weathering' to keep most of the membership of RMWeb in full time work for several months.

[t-b-g]

I can certainly see how a big change every once in a while can keep a museum "fresh" and could very well attract people back who wouldn't go to look at the same things a second time. I just think that the whole roundhouse/turntable/locos stored around scenario is as much more a part of our railway heritage than say, a Japanese Bullet train or a loco that ran in China. If I was in charge I would be far more inclined to try to recreate an actual shed scene, in the manner that the exhibits at "Steam" in Swindon are presented. I would have that part of the building "weathered" and have lots of loco shed bits around, with figures dressed as cleaners and loco crew of years gone by. There could be a "roster board" and a shed foreman's office. I would even be tempted to have a "mucky" loco or two to show what it was really like.

 

I would be happy with a walkway over the top so you could look down on it and all the interactive kids things in the world on the walkway, so that the experiences of loco shed staff could be recreated.

 

Can I have the job please?

[LH&JC]

As I've said elsewhere the one part of NRM plus that I don't think is a good idea is boarding up the turntable, I would much rather see the structure of a turntable than wooden decking, even if the turtable will be left operational. My view is not that it is to do with 'improving circulation, but H&S paranoia that someone will fall into the pit, if they want to improve circulation, move the locos back a bit more! As long as the museum does not become a kiddies playground with some trains in it then I'll be satisfied, besides there is the warehouse to occupy you for hours!

[lmsforever]

Judging by Locomotion the information plaques are wriiten for ten year olds also the layout of exhibits follows no pattern ,lets hope that the NRM does not become a shadow of it self but the new management seem to want to bring everything down to the lowest demoninator.A museum for computer games springs to mindf,and will the model railway survive. There seem to a minimal number of locos and rolling stock to be shown at the moment the hall with the restaurant is how the museum should be.Well laid out and with a sense of history I think the plastic shed should be removed as it is a disaster.There are problems with York but the proposals are not good for the future.

[Sir Hadyn]

Dear All

 

I ty not to let the day job drift in to my involvement here on RMWeb, but it's obviously a topic of great debate, which we welcome. I posted this on two other forums, and hope it will assist:

 

NRM+ is not technocentric, so evolution of locos is not the plan, more of a coherent story of railways in the round. Do also bear in mind that the plan is to develop the whole NRM site over the next 10 years, so NRM+ is not the NRM in microcosm. There'll be a lot of moving around of stuff, new displays in the Station Hall (I was looking at the plans this afternoon) and Steve Davies has said to many that he'd like to have a new roundhouse with live railway action in the South Yard.

 

There'll also be new loans and partnerships and operating opportunities - and because favourites aren't in the Great Hall, doesn't mean there is no place for them in the NRM at York or elsewhere. Think about the V2 and 9F, we wouldn't have brought them back to York without a plan...

 

And please, keep the comments coming. Just because I'm a tired old so and so these days who posts short and curt responses doesn't mean I want to adopt a "holier than thou" attitude. And despite the headline in Rly Mag "NRM Turns its back on enthusiasts", why would we? Enthusiasts are part of our audience and we value their/your opinion. WE went out to consultation to enthusiast groups over NRM+ - and the groups are now hassling me to paint the 4 VEP in NSE livery ;-)

 

However, we do need to respond to the wants of everyone, and there have to be elements of compromise, along with doing some things in new and interesting ways - and that's why the next decade is going to be so exciting for all. It'd also key for enthusing and engaging with families who may contain the enthusiasts and modellers of the future.

 

I'll not be here to answer everyone's concerns in detail, this is my home time, but constructive stuff is more than welcome. Abuse less so!

 

Cheers all

Anthony

 

Senior Curator of Rail Vehicle Collections

[250BOB]

Having very recently visited the Natural History Museum and Science Museum in London....I have to say that I am extremely worried that the NRM may propose to follow a similar direction.

 

A section of the Natural History Museum was entitled "Creepy Crawlies"........?????

 

Should I anticipate a sign at the NRM saying "This way to the Puffer Trains".

 

My overall opinion of both London museums was very poor.......great if you are a 5 or 6 year old maybe. It appeared to me that it aimed almost entirely at children......dont misunderstand, I love kids, I visited the museums with my 10 and 13 yr old grandsons.

 

God help us if the NRM ends up this way.

 

Bob.

[t-b-g]

Let me see if I have got this right. The interior of a fully functional roundhouse is being massively altered in the name of improving the museum with the long term aim being to build a brand new roundhouse a few yards away! Why not keep the present roundhouse and develop it as a working steam centre. All the new interactive displays could then be put in a new building. That would seem to me to fit in with the idea of a museum preserving the fabric of our railway heritage and presenting it in an interesting way to visitors.

 

I was actually one of the people consulted over this plan as I was approached by a researcher in the museum about 3 years ago. Various possible designs were put in front of me for my comments and some of them I would have been very happy with. The current plan (or certainly an early version of it) was clearly the preferred option even at that stage as the artists impression was twice the size of any of the others!

 

I said then that it would ruin the museum and I stand by that. One of the proposed interactive displays was a box that you could go in and be shaken about a bit, to see what it was like to be goods in a covered van. Now if there was a real box van being shunted up and down the yard that you could take a ride in, that would be a genuine experience but a simulator is just, to me, a "we have the technology and we are going to use it" poor substitute.

 

Another was a gambling game to recreate the "railway mania". Not my thing really but if I was taking a 6 year old along I am sure they would enjoy it. As I don't have a 6 year old to take I suppose I should just give the museum a fair chance and go to look at what they have done before I condemn it but my hopes are not high!

[The Stationmaster]

Let me see if I have got this right. The interior of a fully functional roundhouse is being massively altered in the name of improving the museum with the long term aim being to build a brand new roundhouse a few yards away! Why not keep the present roundhouse and develop it as a working steam centre. All the new interactive displays could then be put in a new building. That would seem to me to fit in with the idea of a museum preserving the fabric of our railway heritage and presenting it in an interesting way to visitors.

 

 

Where does this idea of 'a fully functional roundhouse' come from? That disappeared at York a long time back - when the building was radically rebuilt around the turntable area. Its only resemblance to a roundhouse is that it has a turntable (hardly unique in Britain today) which serves radial roads (not too common but still in existence elsewhere as a proper roundhouse environment). I can remember the final version of York shed from its operational days and it certainly didn't bear much resemblance to what is there now apart from occupying the same site, as well as being somewhat different from the way my father had known it in the 1920s when he went sometimes there with his grandfather on pension day. And in any case just how historically significant was the postwar rebuild of York shed compared with, say, Barrow Hill or St Blazey?

I am very anti dumbing down in any museum but I can't see why the NRM should be castigated for having new ideas about the way in which it uses the Great Hall - as long as it does so intelligently in a way which satisfies intelligent and inquiring minds and not in some sort of theme park and tacky way (which seems to be the concern of many of those close to the Museum). If the NRM team then want to create a proper roundhouse as a separate project it's a good idea but it will cost a bomb and is obviously not going to be finished by Tuesday week, or even Christmas next year. But hopefully - please - they will do such a re-creation in a 'proper' way and not as some sort of Legoland pastiche.

And if in their new roundhouse - whenever it appears - they want to deck over the turntable well so be it, perfectly historically correct for some roundhouses, including I believe one at York. On the other hand leaving it part uncovered so the 'works' can be seen might also be a useful 'museum' feature.

 

[Boris]

Well, I can think of a few locomen who should quite possibly be suspended from a ceiling somewhere, although maybe not as a museum exhibit. Maybe they could have a cafe with their suspended loco and call it the pie in the sky? Sounds very apt to me.

 

The problem is it seems to me that the target audience of these "upgrades" (used cautiously) is the family market, people looking for a day out, quite possibly not with a direct interest in railways, not the enthusiast. After all, despite being owned by the government, the NRM still does have to think like a business to some extent, and enthusiasts aren't where the money is in the 21st century, it's the average family.

 

Therefore as enthusiasts we can be as skeptical as we like about any upgrades/work/vandalism done to the NRM, but at the end of the day if it keeps the museum going, and even gives them funds to turn out working locomotives for the enthusiast community to enjoy, we may well just have to accept it as a necessary evil.

 

Having toured the reserve collection of the NRM a number of times, I can vouch for the fact that it truly is absolutely fascinating and is well worth putting on public display, there is more to railways than just locomotives, don't forget that. Also the social contribution of railways cannot be overlooked, both in terms of contribution to the industrialisation of the UK (and hence the British Empire), and in terms of it's legacy to us today. It was after all one of the major contributing factors to time space compression theory.

 

My disjointed thoughts on the matter anyway.

[Chris Chewter]

Theres a museum back in my home town. A Victorian neo-gothic masterpiece. I visited it the last time as a teenager fifteen years ago, and the rooms were filled with the usual dusty taxidermy and Egyptian mummies. Even the model of the city hadn't been replaced. Whilst its free, people visit it less and less, and its almost now a museum of a museum! Visitor numbers are apparently and unsurprisingly falling, and is only frequented by school pupils drawing the full sized stuffed giraffe that urban legend states the external wall was disassembled to get it in the museum, even though the big join on its neck suggests otherwise!

 

I've been to York three times. The last time I visited York I decided to skip the NRM. Why? Because I concluded it was the same line up. Ellerman lines, Mallard, and the royal carriages , all in their same places. I can't imagine the NRM would raise a fanfare to let us know that Mallard had been moved to another corner of the museum, and if they did, I doubt I'd get excited.

 

I think that NRM+ is just what the museum needs to get punters back through the doors for another visit! If I decided to skip the NRM because of its familiarity, other visitors must have come to the same reasoning and walked on by. Change is needed to keep visitor numbers up. If it doesn't, numbers will continue to fall. Therefore I personally think that the NRM+ is a much needed exercise to keep the NRM at the forefront of its game.

 

I agree that some caution is needed. Its not a theme park. The one thing I will miss is the loss of the turntable. I know its just boarded over, but I think it should remain as an exhibit it is own right. However it has to be educational, appealing, and engaging to all, enthusiast and general public alike! The idea of Rocket on the raised bridge, presiding over all steam descendants, I think is quite fitting.

 

As for those who suggest a dirty roundhouse, theres Didcot and Barrow Hill to get that experience. Not everyone wants to get their feet dirty, especially those who only have a fleeting interest in trains, those who have very young kids or pushchairs, or those who have to use a wheelchair. The NRM provides a clean safe environment to enjoy a day with the trains.

 

So where did I go if I didn't visit the NRM? North York Moors Railway of course!

[John B]

I have to agree with those thinking that the NRM is in need of a makeover. I grew up nearby, visited a lot as a kid and young adult, and agree with those who feel that it could become a wee bit stale - as I matured and had "done" and "seen" a lot of the major exhibits, I was more drawn to "what's changed" and the smaller, or reserve / rotated, items.

 

I've not seen the full plans for NRM+ (the link supplied required registration), but I heartily support the ideal of updating the displays. I also feel strongly that Anthony (Sir Hadyn) doesn't deserve the level of abuse / rebuke displayed above, having had the decency to put his head above the parapet.

 

Last year I visited the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento - probably the nearest "equivalent" to the NRM that the USA has, aside from the Smithsonian. It's a much smaller affair than the NRM, granted, with a much more limited collection, but has been (IMO) superbly laid out - with interpretive displays of the role played by the railroads in the development of the West, including pioneering locomotives and rolling stock, transplanted depot (station) buildings, telegraph operations, boxcars and reefers, dining / sleeping cars to walk through (including "simulated" motion!) and a RPO which is internally original and untouched-up since withdrawl from the GN in the late 60s. If NRM+ uses this style of "storyboarding" it's (far superior, numerically, in size at least) collection, then they will be doing a very good thing. As an aside, the CSRM is run by the California State Parks system, and costs an incredibly modest $9 to enter. I don't begrudge a cent of my state taxes to help support this place. See CSRM if you're interested in learning more..

 

As to those thinking that some kind of wanton destruction of a historic MPD / roundhouse is going to occur, as others have said the Great Hall is far removed from how it once looked as York North. There's plenty of good "warts and all" MPDs out there that are much more like they once were - Didcot, Aviemore, Tyesley, Barrow Hill all spring to mind. Surely our "National Collection" deserves a modern, fitting, dare I say exciting home,to preserve, educate and encourage enthusiasts of the future.

[iploffy]

My post has been removed I wonder why

 

Mod3

Because we encourage sensible and reasoned debate and not rants perhaps ?

[Andy Y]

My post has been removed I wonder why

 

At 6.00 a.m. I had more important things to do than enter into dialogue about how offensive your post could be to one or more forum members.

 

 

 

[RedgateModels]

 

The problem is it seems to me that the target audience of these "upgrades" (used cautiously) is the family market, people looking for a day out, quite possibly not with a direct interest in railways, not the enthusiast. After all, despite being owned by the government, the NRM still does have to think like a business to some extent, and enthusiasts aren't where the money is in the 21st century, it's the average family.

 

 

Enthusiasts can have families too, it is allowed. Anything to keep the kids entertained for 5 mins while we take in the rest of the show is greatfully appreciated. Jeez, last time we went to the NRM we couldn't even get an ice-cream - you try telling a 5 year old that

[steviesparx]

Have people seen the plans for the redevelopment and what do they think of them? For my part I will go from being a bit of a fan of the NRM to not wanting any more to do with the place!

 

 

Well, maybe that's not too much of a loss...

...I'm not being rude in that remark, but from what I understand things couldn't go on they way they are...

 

I have visited the NRM a few times,and I rate it as my favorite. But the last time I was there, midweek about March time, it was virtually empty...

 

I took the opportunity to take in all the little tours and footplate talks, and was often the only punter ( I say punter, although as we know there is no entry fee ).

 

During my 'personal' tour of the store ( ? ) area, the excellent guide told me that this was a typical day - a couple of school parties, a few older, retired folk and the occasional tourist ( me, as a Londoner I guess ). Days like that, the cafe and gift shop, both valuable sources of income, probably take very little. Granted school holidays and weekends are much busier, but I'm sure a steady midweek income would be welcome...

 

So a workover of some description is probably necessary, and we're not taking about scrapping any of the exhibits, are we ?

 

...and if the new workover brings in more visitors, even at the expense of your ( or my ) patronage, then it has to be - bums on seats, luvvy, bums on seats !

[Mallard60022]

Look to the future now, it's only just begun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a huge amount of stuff for enthusiasts at the NRM beyond the 'Shed'! Something for everyone if you look carefully.

I have heard first hand about the plans for an operational loco depot 'out back' with safe access for the public; a half roundhouse and servicing facilities with viewing area. Live engines in a live environment. Sounds really brilliant. In the future this will be 'living history'.

We fogies may not benefit from a lot of this but future generations will; good for the NRM management I say.

I agree that some of the ideas seem a bit odd (like covering the turntable) and there will be disruption. However, at the moment, apart from when there are enough staff to do a 'turn', the main shed area is quite boring for the average non railway enthusiast visitor, (especially young people). Sorry folks, but that's how it is.

The old long shed is not much better, however the cafe is excellent.

The NRM is going to have to satisfy a very different audience in future years so let's not get too angry about it all. They are also probably looking at the time when an entrance charge has to be reintroduced!

I also agree that the NRM must not become a theme park, but it does need to modify itself.

36E