NRM+

[m0rris]

I do suppose technically it is BR but not quite in the same way - off topic but I do wonder how many preserved locos carry original contemporary paintwork? I think City of Birmingham does and Dominian of Canada does according to one site.

 

Isnt the Star still carrying its original paintwork from GWR days? I suppose some of the barry wrecks out there are still technically carrying their original paintwork as well !

 

m0rris

[craigwelsh]

Isnt the Star still carrying its original paintwork from GWR days? I suppose some of the barry wrecks out there are still technically carrying their original paintwork as well !

 

m0rris

Its got a BR workshops original steam era paintjob I think. It was withdrawn post GWR anyway in 1951 and presumably the original paint was a bit knackered by then!

[The Stationmaster]

I believe the 'Star' was repainted immediately before it was moved to Swindon museum.

[m0rris]

Its got a BR workshops original steam era paintjob I think. It was withdrawn post GWR anyway in 1951 and presumably the original paint was a bit knackered by then!

 

 

Now Ive thought about it, I think it maybe "merely" a swindon paint job, IIRC there is something at least a little special about it which is why it wont be steamed again.

 

m0rris

[Sir Hadyn]

As well as poor tyres and a goosed firebox...

[RedgateModels]

As well as poor tyres and a goosed firebox...

 

now don't go all technical on us

[Blue Max]

I was in the process of looking for the right place to start a thread re plans for the NRM when I cam across this one.

 

I am one of the many people who In my understanding and after discussions with many railway entusiasts, are digusted at the plans afoot for the NRM. Yes we need to move with the times but have true railway enthusiasts been consulted or just the general public looking for a day out.

 

To put a rocket replica on a bridge is in my opinion gimicky, to disperse many of the locomotive and rolling stock exhibits arpound the country is criminal, at the end of the day this is what most people come to see not little displays with historical notes. As has beem mentioned above many of the interactive displays currently at the museum do not work and they are just going to add to this. As to trying to appeal to the wider public or making the museum more of an educational tool for children - fine, but what do we have at the moment, children on school trips walking round with bits of paper spotting exhibts and ticking them off on lists or sitting at desks colouring in pictures of engines is this going to change, are children going to read the displays on the history of railways - I doubt it.

As for adults, ok to make the museum more educational is a fine principal, but surely that facility is already there and in far greater detail with there new search facility they have spent a fortune on and people wanting the histories of railways etc will buy or borrow the relevant book on the subject and gain for more from that.

 

People want to be impressed and see exhibits, not dreary overpowering boards full of what can only be sketchy/overview type of iformation with the space available.

 

Not wishing to ofend, but Steve Davies and his team need to get real and give the enthuiast who are the repeat visitors and at the end of the day the people who put money into the museum on a regular basis, what they are looking for.

[The Stationmaster]

Now Ive thought about it, I think it maybe "merely" a swindon paint job, IIRC there is something at least a little special about it which is why it wont be steamed again.

 

m0rris

 

The 'Star' was very high on the original list for restoration to working order for GW 150 but it was fairly quickly ruled out because of the condition of its (very well worn, in fact too far worn) driving wheel tyres

 

 

 

[James]

Not wishing to ofend, but Steve Davies and his team need to get real and give the enthuiast who are the repeat visitors and at the end of the day the people who put money into the museum on a regular basis, what they are looking for.

You mean the enthusiasts for whom they organised the Class 37 event?

 

Enthusiasts are a minority group for all heritage sites - I suspect consulting railway historians would be a better bet than enthusiasts. After all there are a lot of ingnorant and ill informed enthusiasts about!

 

And for many visitors presenting things in a way which informs about the bigger picture can't be a bad thing can it? After all there's more to the railway than a collection of locos around a turntable, regardless how pleasent for enthusiasts it is to wander round such a place.

 

to disperse many of the locomotive and rolling stock exhibits arpound the country is criminal

Indeed, how awful to allow people from all over the country a chance to see items from a national collection.

[Sir Hadyn]

I refer Mr Max to my various posts on here in the recent past. As an NRM member of staff AND and enthusiast.

 

Steve Davies said to me on Monday morning "NRM turns its back on enthusiasts? Not while I'm Director!"

 

Lots of folks are on about the changes to the Great Hall as if that were the only part of the NRM. There are plans for the Station Hall and the South Yard, and as I said before, why bring the V2 and 9F back if we didn't have plans...?

 

Sorry if I come across as defensive or grumpy, it isn't meant, I accept I am in a public position and I accept that the plans for the NRM are not to everyone's taste, but it's my job, and I do it because I care.

 

We are in the middle of a pay freeze, the rewards are not in the bank therefore, but I work with the stuff I love and an awful lot of nice people. If through making a new display we enthuse people and there is another generation inspired to do my job, I shall be happy. If we turn away from our new audiences, we shall die.

 

The displays are not to be loads of boards or interactives, part of my job is to make the collection accessible so that people can enjoy it, touch it, get into it and feel that they've engaged with heritage rather than be told "do not touch, do not climb, hands off". Yes, some of the fragile stuff has to have that, but if the visitor has had an encounter with the real thing, it means so much more.

 

Rant over, I'm off to play traction engines for the weekend.

 

Cheers

Anthony

[Blue Max]

You mean the enthusiasts for whom they organised the Class 37 event?

 

Enthusiasts are a minority group for all heritage sites - I suspect consulting railway historians would be a better bet than enthusiasts. After all there are a lot of ingnorant and ill informed enthusiasts about!

 

I would suggest that Enthusiats are actually the majority of customers for all heritage sites, they may be ignorant and ill informed but they are still the regularly returning customers who repeatedly put money in the coffers of these organisations.

 

And for many visitors presenting things in a way which informs about the bigger picture can't be a bad thing can it? After all there's more to the railway than a collection of locos around a turntable, regardless how pleasent for enthusiasts it is to wander round such a place.

 

 

Indeed, how awful to allow people from all over the country a chance to see items from a national collection.

 

I mereley make the point on the basis that if these pieces of historic and valuable equipment are loaned out without the proper controls they will end up deteriorating, their being a couple of examples of this around the country. At least whilst at NRM they are prpoerly cared for, I fully agree that they should be located around the country for more people to see, but with the correct level of care and protection being in place

[S.A.C Martin]

I mereley make the point on the basis that if these pieces of historic and valuable equipment are loaned out without the proper controls they will end up deteriorating, their being a couple of examples of this around the country. At least whilst at NRM they are prpoerly cared for, I fully agree that they should be located around the country for more people to see, but with the correct level of care and protection being in place

 

I have to ask - what makes you think they're not being loaned out with the correct level of care and attention in place?

 

Having seen 63601 and Sir Lamiel at the GCR for four years, along with Oliver Cromwell, I can safely say the the level of care they give is more than satisfactory, as is the case with other railways such as the Mid-Hants, Bodmin and Wenford, and a few others who all have taken care of an NRM locomotive or two.

[craigwelsh]

I mereley make the point on the basis that if these pieces of historic and valuable equipment are loaned out without the proper controls they will end up deteriorating, their being a couple of examples of this around the country. At least whilst at NRM they are prpoerly cared for, I fully agree that they should be located around the country for more people to see, but with the correct level of care and protection being in place

There are some bits at York outside in a less than fit state. If they can be put somewhere else in the country with better protection then its a much better option. As long as you don't end up with the Oliver Cromwell situation of course where you can't get them back when you want

 

I'm rather hoping something gets built to replace the tent at some point though! The type 3 looks great now its been painted though its a pity about the mainline headlight on the front.

 

Didn't realise the Star was a bit knackered under the paint though its not surprising it was a quick cosmetic job at the time.

 

Are the plans up on a board somewhere at the NRM now? I might pop in tomorrow if I get across to York to do some gliding.

[The Stationmaster]

But there are 'enthusiasts', and 'enthusiasts', and 'enthusiasts ... ad infinitum in a huge variety of interests, tastes, and - most particularly - knowledge. That difference is reflected in a difference of views on here about NRM+, or whatever it emerges as, and it can extend to differences of opinion about how the musuem should preserve or conserve items in its collections or whether, say, its locomotives are better off seen 'stuffed and mounted' in a museum or out operating in some sort of pastiche (for that is usually what it is) of their past working environment.

Many NationalCollection locos have been restored to working order as part of their loan conditions to 'preserved railway' sites whereas if left at York they would probably have mouldered at the end of an increasing queue of items waiting to be conserved and never likely to turn a wheel under their own power again. But if they are out as 'working exhibits' they run a risk of suffering from a few everyday knocks and a good chance of getting dirty - in the ashpan if nowhere else, but that is what happens on a working railway.

And meanwhile at York a massive stock of artifacts is stuffed away in cages with limited public opportunity to see them and often little to suggest their place in our railway history. If some of that wealth of history is going to get proper exposure and explanation in exchange for boarding over a turntable pit I reckon it's a good bargain.

As for the buildings well the Great Hall is a museum building - end of story - and bears little resemblance to the running shed which preceded it on that site. Far more important from the historical perspective is the Station Hall which at least is the original (in pre-NRM terms) goods shed building and one which I would hate to see too desparately altered as it is, I believe, probably the sole surviving example of a such a 'large goods depot' building in fairly original condition in this country. And oddly I have sitting right in front of me a link with that building in its former usage - a corner cupboard despatched from it 'by goods train' almost 50 years ago. Railway history isn't just about looking at amazingly clean locos, it runs a lot deeper than that.

[AberdeenBill]

Hi all,

 

An interesting debate... I visited the Cite du Train in Mulhouse (France) last year on a Saturday afternoon. One hall is devoted to "the golden age of the train" and features multi-media displays, marionettes, light shows etc. as well as the trains. It's very dark (for taking photos) and the audioguide handset things didn't work ;-( However, the punters were clearly enjoying the experience. The other section, which I had to myself apart from a bored wife and daughter features locomotives (the 1955 world-speed-record electrics etc.) in a "shed setting" but almost nothing else. If you're not an enthusiast, I suspect that one looks very much like another...

 

But it could all be worse... Some years ago I lived in Houston, Texas. The NASA museum at the Mission Control site (admission free) contained some of the key artefacts of the space age, but the presentation was apparently deemed "too old fashioned." Its replacement was a ghastly "theme park" (admission definitely not free) with all scientific and technical content removed and replaced by things like the "The Kodak space shuttle simulator" and "the IBM moon rock grabber"...

 

Bill

[m0rris]

The above comment reminds me of my visit to the Deutsche Technisches Museum in Berlin... many historically important exhibits were just shunted in the shed, hard to photo but more importantly hard to get a true understanding of the exhibits!

 

m0rris

[pete_mcfarlane]

I rather like the NRM, but can see that there is room for improvement. I think my only major criticism would be that it's more of a museum of nice looking engines than museum of railway history. This is probably due to the way the National collection grew in the 1960s when it saved large numbers of steam locomotives from scrap, and then needed a decent museum to display them in.

 

As an example, there's a fairly token collection of coaching stock on display without a single Mk1 carriage (a key vehicle in railway history and an example of the standardisation that came in after 1948) on display inside the museum buildings. Royal coaches and the Bullet train aside, I think the most modern coaches on display inside are the Night Ferry sleeper and the 4-COR motor coach.

 

But that's my own subjective view, and I don't think the museum is intended just for me (something that one or two of the other posters on this thread don't seem to grasp).

.... and "the IBMâ„¢ moon rock grabber"...

Rather like everyone else's moon rock grabber, but at 3 times the price and you need to buy special moon rocks to go with it....

[Sir Hadyn]

Pete - you hit the nail on the head - and it's something we want to address - and one of the reasons we've just bought a Mark 2D. And the collection's Mark 1 is at Shildon, still in ex-BN91 condition.

 

Cheers

Anthony

[D605Eagle]

I think this sums up perfectly whats going to happen to the NRM

linky

Oh by the way, I did a quick poll of 10 people I know who are not rail enthusiasts but have visited the NRM in recent years. All were horrified by the plans. Only the kids seemed interested. I think that tells us something.

Jim

[S.A.C Martin]

I think this sums up perfectly whats going to happen to the NRM

linky

Oh by the way, I did a quick poll of 10 people I know who are not rail enthusiasts but have visited the NRM in recent years. All were horrified by the plans. Only the kids seemed interested. I think that tells us something.

Jim

 

Right Jim, because 10 people indicates a trend?

 

There's positives and negatives out of the plans. If you feel you want something changed, email the NRM, make your opinion clear (but constructive) and give a reasonable alternative. It's not finalized until they actually start knocking things down...!

 

I think what is clear is that there's some misunderstanding of what the NRM is all about. I have always perceived it to be the centre piece of our nation's railway history, and the plans (for me at least) make some sense as to the direction they want to take it in.

 

Perhaps, with regards the complaints regarding the roundhouse - could we not all chip in a tenner, and start a fund to have a new, prototypical roundhouse built, outside the main hall building, so that an actual portrayal of an MPD in the days of steam, can be fully recreated at York?

 

I'm willing to slap my tenner down now if that is what it takes to get the ball rolling.

[The Stationmaster]

I think this sums up perfectly whats going to happen to the NRM

linky

Oh by the way, I did a quick poll of 10 people I know who are not rail enthusiasts but have visited the NRM in recent years. All were horrified by the plans. Only the kids seemed interested. I think that tells us something.

Jim

 

But what is 'going to be gone'? Surely they don't intend to scrap any of the exhibits or rolling stock they hold on behalf of the nation do they? And I sincerely hope - and I'm sure that Sir Hadyn will reassure us - that they aren't going to dump irreplaceable items of rolling stock out in the yard without any weather protection.

Anyone who knew the old Railway Museum in York will recognise the tremendous advance which the present one represents. Anyone who knew York shed, even in its final years, will know that any resemblance between it and the present museum display is tenuous to say the least. So by changing its display approach and emphasis the museum is doing no more than has happened in the past - but we hope that it will be be done intelligently and without dumbing down to suit a generation which seems to have an increasingly limited understanding of written english, regards a computer game as 'dynamic movement', and recognises (usually poorly) WWII as the only event in 'history'. NRM+ will, I sincerely hope, not fall into the trap of trying to meet that 'market' but will instead provide a sensible and intelligent examination of our (plus bit of 'foreign') railway history including a proper explanation of how the steam locomotive developed and how it works as well as the impact it made on our country.

That is some task if it is to be done properly but if the NRM succeeds it will be well worth it. If it fails it will be a glorious waste of money so I hope it will succeed.

 

[Rumblestripe]

I suppose in a discussion about change, enthusiasts are likely to be those least keen? Imagine if they displayed a Mk1 coach in traditional back of the yard graffitto'd condition! I don't see anything wrong with interactive displays (are not Model Railways simply our own interactive representations of a railway?) working ones would be nice. As for Rocket on a bridge? Why not? Put some drama into the presentation, create a sense of history and tradition. I like Locomotion and visit it regularly it would be a good idea if possible to rotate the exhibits more regularly with NRM though Shildon does rather well for visits as it is.

 

Sometimes it needs someone with imagination to revive an institution such as the NRM. As long as there is destruction to the existing exhibits (I can't believe people are "up in arms" about boarding in the well of the turntable! Plainly these people were never going to be happy with any change!

 

A different area altogether but does anyone recall when Ford decided to redesign the Escort Mk3, after the uproar of replacing the Cortina with the Sierra instead of going to a styling studio they decided to use the consensus of clinics of customers. They got a bland turkey (it still sold - great marketing) but they have never done it since.

 

All of which reminds me, I mist revisit NRM, it's been a few years now!

[D605Eagle]

Right Jim, because 10 people indicates a trend?

 

There's positives and negatives out of the plans. If you feel you want something changed, email the NRM, make your opinion clear (but constructive) and give a reasonable alternative. It's not finalized until they actually start knocking things down...!

 

I think what is clear is that there's some misunderstanding of what the NRM is all about. I have always perceived it to be the centre piece of our nation's railway history, and the plans (for me at least) make some sense as to the direction they want to take it in.

 

Perhaps, with regards the complaints regarding the roundhouse - could we not all chip in a tenner, and start a fund to have a new, prototypical roundhouse built, outside the main hall building, so that an actual portrayal of an MPD in the days of steam, can be fully recreated at York?

 

I'm willing to slap my tenner down now if that is what it takes to get the ball rolling.

I wasn't trying to say that those 10 people represented the entire population, just an interesting snap poll of non neds, thats all. I think it would be much better if the main hall was left with its turntable and the new fangled displays could go in a new side hall, with a small charge (say £1 a head) to pay for it to get in that section. Now that for sure would show how many people really wanted it, wouldn't it? plus if it was successfull then surely everybody would be happy?

Jim

[craigwelsh]

I think it would be much better if the main hall was left with its turntable and the new fangled displays could go in a new side hall, with a small charge (say £1 a head) to pay for it to get in that section. Now that for sure would show how many people really wanted it, wouldn't it? plus if it was successfull then surely everybody would be happy?

Jim

No that would show people don't like paying for things! Hardly allowing for a fair comparison.

 

My only big concern is that if you get a costly 'dynamic' display wrong it'll be years before you can raise the money again to fix it..

[D605Eagle]

No that would show people don't like paying for things! Hardly allowing for a fair comparison.

 

My only big concern is that if you get a costly 'dynamic' display wrong it'll be years before you can raise the money again to fix it..

Now I had thought about this carefully with the results of my snap poll in mind, and as these dynamic displays to borrow your terminology just happen to be noisy, then the kids that expressed an interest will nag their parents/gardians into parting with the few quid to get in...Still think its not a good idea? After all it leaves the main hall as the majority seem to want it.