Starter soldering pack?

[Coombe Barton]

ADMIN: Split from Warley topic being of more general interest

 

 

To give an instance, one gentleman wanted to buy a signal gantry from my stand but was reluctant to solder it together himself, so I suggested that he go to a soldering demo which was hands on and ask if he could try soldering the kit under expert supervision. Polite decline.

So is there a market for a cheap etched kit of something (and I don't know what) that's there so that people can learn soldering without thinking they're spending a fortune? Or is there room in the etched kit as you described for a 'throwaway' that will teach the necessary skills (backed up by a website video) so that people gain the confidence? i.e. get them to make something that they then throw away as an incentive to buy the kit.

 

Maybe we could get a supplier of soldering gooodies to put one together, e,g, an iron, some brass, some solder, a few clips and a link to a web video. One inclusive price so that some of the mystique is removed.

 

But then don't tell 'em about the oofle dust

[hayfield]

ADMIN: Split from Warley topic being of more general interest

 

 

 

 

Maybe we could get a supplier of soldering gooodies to put one together, e,g, an iron, some brass, some solder, a few clips and a link to a web video. One inclusive price so that some of the mystique is removed.

 

But then don't tell 'em about the oofle dust

From memory Antex do a nice set. Iron, stand and solder I think it also comes with brief instructions. Practice on the scrap from the etch. Also buy some flux.

 

Perhapps one of the more skilled members would do a quick tutorial thread.

[Kenton]

I always say that the best "learner" kit is a simple brass wagon.

 

Although learning the fundamental requirements (cleaning parts, correct use of flux, solder and iron) can be done with any scrap brass and the fret waste is a good source for the really scared, You cannot beat the satisfaction and feeling of achievement at actually building a kit.

 

After that you can aim to improve the skills and perhaps progress to loco kits or signals but these do involve more than just soldering.

[spamcan61]

Lochgorm kits sell a 'beginner's fret' wagon kit intended as an introduction to etched kit construction:-

 

http://www.lochgormkits.co.uk/html/wagons.html

[Kris]

I think that most railway modellers will have access to an iron, otherwise it starts to become problematic to wire up the layout. Given this I wonder if it is not a kit that is needed but some good instructions for the basics. If this could be done in a side of A4 or less then these could be given away for the nervous. The web video option linked into this would add to the benefit.

[halfwit]

London Road Models did a 'starter pack' back in '94 for a couple of quid which I think had solder, flux and a few bits of brass to practice on in conjuction with Modelling Railways Illustrated who were running a series on soldering written by Iain Rice at the time. Still the best soldering guide printed in my opinion.

I have thought about building a simple etched wagon kit and doing a step by step write up on here. Would anyone be interested in seeing something like that?

[Kenton]

Lochgorm kits sell a 'beginner's fret' wagon kit intended as an introduction to etched kit construction:-

 

http://www.lochgormkits.co.uk/html/wagons.html

 

This fret is mainly intended as an exercise in the construction of etched kits. While it is described as a ‘beginner’s’ kit it should be appreciated that this means a beginner to etched construction and not a total tyro.

 

Total Tyro ?

 

You should have a good working knowledge of wagonry and have built a fair number of plastic and white metal wagons before coming to this kit. A reasonable knowledge of such matters as brakegear is assumed.

 

No No No - white metal soldering is a completely different craft. Similar to but different in technique and materials used. In fact it probably should be another "starter".

 

I would always say start with brass - there is less to go wrong and as already said the "newbie" probably has at least an adequate soldering iron and has at least soldered two wires together and to a rail bottom.

 

Other than that it looks like a suitable option.

[Kenton]

I have thought about building a simple etched wagon kit and doing a step by step write up on here. Would anyone be interested in seeing something like that?

There are already quite a few already on here done as step by step - even some done by what has turned out to be very competent first-timers - but the more the merrier as it is still amazing how different skills vary in their use of gadgets and ploys to make things go together. It can be quite difficult to show some things on camera - like for instance the difference between attempting to solder uncleaned brass and well cleaned and fluxed brass. Nothing quite like that gasp of surprise at how fast solder shoots along a joint that is clean and dripping in flux. Or the astonishment that a stronger joint can be made with less solder not more.

 

and OK this is one I did earlier http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/15107-a-hunslet-the-like-never-seen-before/page__p__139740__fromsearch__1#entry139740 but would welcome any improvements on "how I did that" that might be made for the next one a 7mm wagon that I am always suggesting as a starter that is creeping up the to-do pile.

[Huw Griffiths]

I have thought about building a simple etched wagon kit and doing a step by step write up on here. Would anyone be interested in seeing something like that?

 

I'd be very interested.

 

I'd never want anyone to do anything on my account, but my soldering experience is limited to electronics and strain gauges (very similar, but more "fussy" and working in much more restricted areas). Although I'm good at these areas (with my background, I need to be), I know nothing about soldering large pieces of metal together.

 

I view etched brass kits in exactly the same way as I view PCB track - I'd like to know how it's done (and what size soldering iron I need), but I don't know where to start.

 

Many thanks.

 

Huw.

[Jol Wilkinson]

ADMIN: Split from Warley topic being of more general interest

 

 

 

So is there a market for a cheap etched kit of something (and I don't know what) that's there so that people can learn soldering without thinking they're spending a fortune? Or is there room in the etched kit as you described for a 'throwaway' that will teach the necessary skills (backed up by a website video) so that people gain the confidence? i.e. get them to make something that they then throw away as an incentive to buy the kit.

 

Maybe we could get a supplier of soldering gooodies to put one together, e,g, an iron, some brass, some solder, a few clips and a link to a web video. One inclusive price so that some of the mystique is removed.

 

But then don't tell 'em about the oofle dust

 

 

 

I would recommend buying a copy of Iain Rice's "Etched loco Construction" or for less outlay "A simple guide to building etched kits" from London Road Models. The important thing for a beginner is to make sure that they start with suitable flux and correct solder, so a starter pack need only consist of these items and some metal. As has already been pointed out, they've probably already got a soldering iron (although it may well not be the best one for the job).

 

The Manchester Club, for example, run soldering classes using etch "waste" and under direction that is practical. At home, on your own, all alone, the discipline is removed and the desire to get on with a kit takes over. Been there, done that

 

Kenton's suggestion that a simple van or wagon is a good start is spot on and certainly more satisfying than soldering a few bits of non-descript metal together. You can always start by soldering the waste bits of fret together from a kit, before starting on the model itself. However my experience at shows is that most initiates want to go straight for it and start with a loco kit - and the more complicated the better - rather than taking a sensible route.

[Kenton]

The other comment was I can't find a kit that I want at my current skill level. Simple answer is buy something else, build it and then sell it to someone who can't/won't be able to build it. You develop your skills, make a return on your outlay and ebay etc., makes that process even easier.

However it usually takes more than just what is in the box plus skill to build a kit to a level that is saleable

those extra words on most boxes "wheels, motor, gears, paint and transfers NOT included"

[Mike Bellamy]

I'm sure I saw something on the Agenoria O Gauge stand at NEC but couldn't get close enough to see what it was and I didn't get chance to go back when he was a bit quieter.

 

Did I imagine this or can anyone say what it was ?

 

Mike

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I don't agree that rolling stock, even a simple wagon, is really a good starter kit. It isn't very long before this starter kit needs wheelsets aligning, couplings and painting all of which require a degree of modelling skill that is beyond the average. Even most wagon kits need some sort of understanding of how brake gear works and even then the wagon might well have been built in 189something and be long gone before towing behind that Class 47 that our lucky punter has acquired.

 

I think that some sort of lineside equipment is needed. The gantry that I mentioned comes in two styles, modern image with suspended signal head sub gantries and steam image which could be used for semaphores. The steam image one is much simpler and cheaper but is still not a starter kit for the most part.

 

Then of course, it is the recommendation to buy a soldering iron, good solder, useful flux. All for something that will fall over and into disuse.

 

I think the answer is as follows:- electrical box set as seen everywhere, even at a pinch in the steam era complete with optional hinged doors and printed card interior, small tin of suitable grey paint and a gas powered soldering iron, small vial of flux ( will need safety cap ), little tiny disposable brush and small coil of leaded 174 solder. Full instructions including 'apply flux with brush here....'

 

All in a box that gives an adequate guide to the contents and a pic of the finished article so that anyone with a hankering to try soldering but lacks the nous and equipment will home in on this kit and give it a spin.

 

Unfortunately, to reach the audience that needs this, every dealer will need to stock it and advertise it plus make a profit. So price and quality are important and with multiple suppliers as this will need, some altruism and a powerful distributor.

 

Good idea but might well fall over at the costings stage.

[Coombe Barton]

Or is the real answer more long winded instructions? Something that you download from the web?

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Or is the real answer more long winded instructions? Something that you download from the web?

 

That is already there. It doesn't work too well. A lot of people are not on the net anywhere but at work and in a lot of cases this precludes downloads and printing of such material.

 

I think statistically that only 10% of households have the net at home ( I have no idea whether this statistic applies to model railway enthusiasts ) and that the numbers joining the net are pretty much cancelled out by leavers.

[Flymo748]

So is there a market for a cheap etched kit of something (and I don't know what) that's there so that people can learn soldering without thinking they're spending a fortune? Or is there room in the etched kit as you described for a 'throwaway' that will teach the necessary skills (backed up by a website video) so that people gain the confidence? i.e. get them to make something that they then throw away as an incentive to buy the kit.

 

Maybe we could get a supplier of soldering gooodies to put one together, e,g, an iron, some brass, some solder, a few clips and a link to a web video. One inclusive price so that some of the mystique is removed.

 

Turning from the tools (where I'm sure that LRM, and C&L, and others will happily advise on a good starter pack) to the learning, one way is to get involved with a Society or club. The Scalefour Society, and I understand the ENGS as well, has run workshops this year covering basic soldering techniques. This was how the Scalefour Society one was described:

 

"Interested in P4?

Not sure how to get started?

Want to find out what is involved?

 

Then you need a Scalefour Society Workbench

 

The Scalefour Society is pleased to announce a practical workshop, aimed at

those who are interested in modelling to finescale 4mm standards, or who are

contemplating changing to P4 modelling but want to find out more first.

The workshop will give an introduction to:

• Soldering skills and materials

• Fitting suspension to a model wagon

• Converting a ready-to-run locomotive using drop-in P4 wheelsets

• Track construction using riveted sleeper construction

The workbench will be run by experienced P4 modellers and will give hands-on

experience in all of these areas. Attendees will need to bring with them a small

selection of tools and details will be provided in advance of the Workbench. "

 

This was run in February in central London, and you can see the achievements of the participants here.

 

The Workbench was open to non-members of the Society, and was advertised in both MRJ and BRM, as well as on our website at www.scalefour.org.

 

Of course the examples used were P4, but they are equally applicable to finescale modellers in OO or EM. The Scalefour Society hasn't yet decided when the next workbench will be run, but if RMWebbers are interested, and with AndyY's blessing, I'll be happy to give details on here.

 

Cheers

Paul Willis

Marketing manager

[arty]

Although I was supposed to be demo-ing G3 wagon building I must have spent 70-80% talking and showing folk how easy it is to solder with the right equipment and very basic knowledge.

 

It's really small scale sheet metalwork, and to learn the very basics just a few small sheets/strip/rods of brass or nickel silver can unwrap the "secrets"

I suspect to some, a kit will actually complicate the task.

 

All the more specialised techniques like whitemetal soldering, using a RSU etc need the basic knowledge first.

 

It may appear to be a black art to the newcomer but it isn't at all, I think it is important to understand what you are trying to achieve, the iron you need for an N gauge kit is going to be a bit different to the irons etc you need for G1 or G3 work and every other scale in between.

 

I suspect reading a book, even if it is well illustrated will give you a basic outline , but the only way to hone your skill is to burn your fingers, make lots of mistakes and throw some bits in the bin.

 

Just my thoughts - I keep finding new ways to do things , making small jigs and fixtures - blocks of wood - wooden test tube clips - clothes pegs - cocktail sticks - these are all important accessories !

 

Richard

[10800]

I suspect reading a book, even if it is well illustrated will give you a basic outline , but the only way to hone your skill is to burn your fingers, make lots of mistakes and throw some bits in the bin.

 

 

Yup - although we try to minimise the last part!

 

But your main point is correct - you can have as many books, DVDs, hands-off demos etc as you like but ultimately you have got to get down and do it yourself. I think the biggest issue for those reluctant or nervous of trying is not understanding the concept of "you will make mistakes and that is when you learn the most"; instead they expect to get it perfect first time and get disillusioned when they don't. That's part of the learning curve folks!

 

Of course I have books and DVDs as well, but I use them mainly after I've successfully (or unsuccessfully) done something myself, because then they tend to make a lot more sense because I have the experience to relate it to.

[Kenton]

Re: my bold bit

 

Thats not what the kit maker is implying....Its a mention that although the kit is sold as a Starter Kit, some experience in building a white metal and/or plastic would be handy, if only to make sure the builder was familiar with what bits of a wagon are actually meant to go where....

In other words its an Etched Brass Starter Kit, not a starter from base line starter kit.....

Which was why I quoted directly from the site.

 

I have to strongly disagree with his statement.

In fact I take the opposite view and that any experience of white metal kit building is totally useless for etched kit building. The process and materials are different and they should be approached differently. I also think experience of plastic kit construction will be of little practical value. Etched kit construction is nothing like gluing components together and probably all the tools used are different.

[Kenton]

One of the best demos I saw - and it must be 10+ years ago, was a guy demonstrating that it really didn't matter if you make a mistake with etch kit building because he showed that with a micro burner you could always break it up, clean it up and start over again.

It is never the end of the world.

 

Most kit builds in my experience fail due to the poor standard of the "kit" design. Typically parts that will never fit (smokebox wrappers, boilers,) parts that require that specialist technique (rolling boilers, tumblehomes) parts that have been gauge compromised - they are in 4mm but you are building in OO (splashers, frames) parts that have not been designed at all (we don't supply gearbox or wheels so you're going to have to guess how to fit them) or the all to often poor instructions.

[10800]

If the items to be joined are not clean, and/or the tip of the iron is not clean, then you will not make a good joint, so cleanliness needs to be observed.

 

 

Not forgetting the cleanliness of the solder itself - and never be tempted to use some old drop of solder that's fallen on the work bench

[Kenton]

So, to start soldering you need the following:

Decent iron of about 40W;

A stand with cleaning sponge;

Some Scotchbrite pads;

Some solder;

Some flux;

An applicator for the brush;

A few bits of scrap kit etch, or buy a few bits of brass from a K&S display.

A desire to have a go, and take it steady.

I guess the problem is for the new comer is just who do they believe.

 

We have seen it here before on RMWeb when it comes down to preparing a list like that they are only one man's view of the situation the next one would have their own take on it - sometimes even contrary. For example.

 

So, to start soldering you need the following:

Decent iron of about 40W;25W (I have and continue to use a 25W on all scale work (including) 7mm and also on white metal work I shun the use of temperature controlled irons because I was taught how to solder with a 25W iron. That doesn't make 40W wrong or even an 80W. The wattage is all about the ability of the iron to recover and its ability to quickly transfer heat.

A stand with cleaning sponge; Personally I think sponges are next to useless or worse and can introduce contaminants, especially organic residue to the tip. Use a brass shaving s tin to clean the excess solder from the tip - or better still don't use excess solder.

Some Scotchbrite pads; I can't think why unless you are cleaning an oxidised tip or really dirty etches.

Some solder; One of the most important follow-up lessons to soldering and something that should be learned is the range of temperature solders available and their importance in kit building. Hands up who has soldered brake gear on a chassis only to find it fall off when you get to the last hanger (Me- yes) and the higher the Wattage of your iron the more likely this is to happen.

Some flux; and an understanding of how it works.

An applicator for the brush; I don't use a brush, never needed to. I have a loop of brass wire which has always been sufficient to carry a drop of flux from the pot to the work.

A few bits of scrap kit etch, or buy a few bits of brass from a K&S display. I never throw fret scrap away as it has often been useful to fabricate things like brackets and ties to reinforce corners of poorly fitting kit parts.

A desire to have a go, and take it steady. definitely

 

And go to the next demo stand and the expert there will give you another version, and so on.

[arty]

We have seen it here before on RMWeb when it comes down to preparing a list like that they are only one man's view of the situation the next one would have their own take on it - sometimes even contrary

 

I completely agree, we all find our favourite way of achieving the best result. All you can do, especially when demo-ing is to show how you have overcome the problems, mostly the techniques are very similar.

 

I have always found the biggest pitfall is iron wattage, there is a time element to how quickly you can transfer heat, it's one of the few commonalities with electrical/electronics soldering - the faster you can make the joint the less you are going to affect other solder joints, other materials etc.

 

There are basic rules, but lots of ways to overcome the problems we meet.

 

I could write a book ( as could we all ) about the way I do things, but it's not going to apply to everyone or even make sense, you need to understand the application.

 

Richard

[spamcan61]

 

When you actually start talking to people, you find that they have great difficulty in acquiring new skill sets and, indeed, accessing the Internet to gain this information. They want it made easy for them so that they can just suck it and see on the kitchen table or even better in the garage without spending rafts of money and looking like a twonk with the result.

I agree that acquiring a new skill set is not just a matter of practise, it varies drastically from individual to individual. As I've pointed out in the past, i could practise guitar for 10 hours a day for 10 years, I'd still be complete rubbish.

[A_S]

I can only comment on my experience, but i came to kit building from building tamiya plastic cars and with no railway modeling experience and only ever having handled a soldering iron once or twice in my life. All i needed to get started was the following, and a bit of thinking around the subject/research.

 

http://www.gauge0gui.../newcomers3.asp

 

which directed me here:

 

http://www.jimmcgeow...ter%20Loco.html

 

Jims started kit is fantastic. I cant recomend it highly enough. He includes a booklet with everything you need to know about etched kit construction and 2 full pages in the instructions about recomended irons, techniques, fluxes and solders. Even during the build the instructions are comprehensive and describe the technique you need to use in order to solder in diffierent situations. Of course, Jim sends you printed copies but you can also find what he sends on his website, avalable to anyone:

 

Instructions:

 

http://www.jimmcgeow...ter%20Loco.html

 

FAQs

 

http://www.jimmcgeow...oklet%20pdf.pdf

 

Tips:

 

http://www.jimmcgeow...cover%20pdf.pdf

 

perfect.

 

And the result? (With a bit of help from others along the way)

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/11082-a-ss-workbench-thead/