Idling locomotive engines

[Fat Controller]

THe fgw units and now powercars are modified to shut down 15 minutes after the drivers desk has been shut to save fuel

 

As for running, I think the brief last year was to run for an hour out of every three for hsts on shore supply, leave running those that arent.

 

Units I think were much the same in cold weather but they do preheat themselves if the batteries are good...

The problem is as much the batteries as the engine- once temperatures drop to near freezing, batteries discharge really quickly. During the same winter as the Seer Green crash, I was working installing pallet-racking in Crewe. Our forklifts normally held enough charge for about 14-15 hours of intermittent use- that dropped to about 1.5 hours.

I find that electric loco batteries don't hold enough juice to run the compressor for long enough to raise the pantographs if they've dropped- I don't know if our locos are so fitted, but I have seen a manual pantograph-raising handle on SNCF locos.

[PhilH]

How does all this sit with neighbours who might live in close proximity to the depots / sidings whatever - are there not complaints from people with this night time ying - yinging outside their bedroom window?.

[The Stationmaster]

How does all this sit with neighbours who might live in close proximity to the depots / sidings whatever - are there not complaints from people with this night time ying - yinging outside their bedroom window?.

 

 

 

That reminds me of Westbury Training School which was quite near to the running lines and for some reason at one time a loco used to be stabled in the north end sidings about 200 or so feet from one corner of the building. When mixed function courses arrived in winter there was always a question about who got a bedroom near that corner as a Hymek used to be left on those sidings and inevitably had the engine running if a cold night was expected. M&EE folk were given the short straw as 'you're the ones who issue the Frost Precaution Instructions'. But in reality must of the building thrumbed away all night in sympathy with the building and not all comfortably for the occupants.

We laso had a right time in South Wales at Radyr where the stabling point was up against a steep cutting wall which was topped by gardens a couple of hundred feet long at the rear of some large houses. Low temperatures and anything up to half a dozen EE Type 3s would be chuntering away all night. One resident really took umbrage and started calling all & sundry BR wise in the middle of the night but when he got hold of the Divisional Manager's number and rang him at 02.30 things moved a little and we got a thermometer to make sure we weren't running locos unnecessarily. The complainant still wasn't happy and suggested we were poisoning his children with loco exhaust gases and he duly got hold of some monitoring equipment to prove it, then sending his figures to BR. This resulted in a visit from a scientific team from Derby who carefully explained to him that if he really had recorded those levels of various chemicals in the exhaust gases he would have been dead long before he could make another call to complain.

 

But it's not nice - as anyone who lived in Old Oak Hostel would confirm.

[StaffsOatcake]

On a related but somewhat drifting off topic point, my Skoda Octavia's diesel engine doesn't like to be hot started (i.e. after switching off to pop into a shop for five minutes), but is quite happy with cold starts, or warm starts (say, after thirty minutes). Not quiet sure that squares up with how diesel locomotives prefer warm or hot starts, but it certainly goes against them where cold starts are concerned.

 

(Apologies for the off topic nature of this reply)

 

Off topic reply. Something amiss with that. diesel engines usually start better when they are warm, as it makes reaching the critical ignition point easier if there is more latent heat around. Don't think Marine diesel engines are fitted with glow plugs like car engines are. Poor starting may be due to low compression due to wear

 

 

 

[Poor Old Bruce]

I think this all started in cold the winter of 1963 when several power units forze up and burst their cylinder blocks. They had to be shopped so that the damaged parts of the blocks could be machined off and replaced. The Train Heating Boilers also suffered resulting in some strange haulage combinations like a Peak with a Mickey Mouse coupled inside to provide train heating which came into Derby off the West Road one dinner time.

[Ian J.]

Off topic reply. Something amiss with that. diesel engines usually start better when they are warm, as it makes reaching the critical ignition point easier if there is more latent heat around. Don't think Marine diesel engines are fitted with glow plugs like car engines are. Poor starting may be due to low compression due to wear

Off topic reply again (I might have to start a Wheeltappers thread ) I suspect that after 118000 miles, it's most likely to be wear, but when it goes in for its next service, I'll mention it to the garage and see what they say.

[James]

I suspect that after 118000 miles, it's most likely to be wear

Off topic reply...

 

Unless it's been abused then a diesel engine after that mileage should be just about run in. A modern diesel engine is easily good for 250,000 miles.

[peach james]

James, you missed. 1, 118, 000 miles.

 

Our poor old CAT 398 on the ship is a tad hard of starting- it won't, below 63F or so. We don't have ether, so it is just heaters, crank, heaters, crank. Good news is it's air start. Bad news is that it can suck 15 hp of compressed air, and inevitably, it happens when we are already using 6+ hp of compressor for firing a boiler too.

 

The Detroits are remarkably good for starting regardless of what is going on around them- all 4 of them were great. (2 12V71's, 2 12V92's). The one 71 went like snot, even after we threw all kinds of engine bits around & was down to 9 functioning cylinders- we still had 300+ kw on it. (500 kw genset). I coulnd't bar it over afterwards- and I weigh ~240 lb, and was bouncing on the end of around 8 ft of lever...

 

James

[scotcent]

A good many years ago I was in the loco shed in Vancouver. The foreman there assured me that his diesels were never shut down during the winter (other than for repairs). The climate there is much the same as here.

[pH]

A good many years ago I was in the loco shed in Vancouver. The foreman there assured me that his diesels were never shut down during the winter (other than for repairs). The climate there is much the same as here.

EMD diesel engines in North America have, until recently, not used antifreeze. They have used plain water for cooling, and so have had to be kept running in temperatures lower than freezing. This was because the design of the engines made it possible for coolant to leak into the lubricating oil. If there was antifreeze in the coolant, that could have serious effects on bearings in the engine. Modern EMD diesel engines can use antifreeze. Here's a topic on a North American website about diesels being kept running in cold temperatures.

[StaffsOatcake]

Off topic reply again (I might have to start a Wheeltappers thread ) I suspect that after 118000 miles, it's most likely to be wear, but when it goes in for its next service, I'll mention it to the garage and see what they say.

 

 

 

off topic Small fry for a diesel engine 210,000 miles on my cavalier turbo diesel and it started without a hint of a problem even at minus 10. . but then the gear box went.

 

 

[scotcent]

EMD diesel engines in North America have, until recently, not used antifreeze. They have used plain water for cooling, and so have had to be kept running in temperatures lower than freezing. This was because the design of the engines made it possible for coolant to leak into the lubricating oil. If there was antifreeze in the coolant, that could have serious effects on bearings in the engine. Modern EMD diesel engines can use antifreeze. Here's a topic on a North American website about diesels being kept running in cold temperatures.

 

Thank you for the expert advice

 

Allan F

[dave1905]

Interesting discussion. In N America, none of the engines use anti-freeze. If its below freezing and you shut down an engine, it has to have the water drained out of it.

 

Do the EMD engines in the UK use antifreeze?

[Fat Controller]

Don't know if these two points are related at all

 

Shortly after the old carriage workshops at Loswithiel became "Brunel Quays" apartments a sign appeared at the end of the Down Goods Loop instructing to the effect that locomotives must not be left idling for more than 15 minutes.......

 

 

Also

Its a good idea (or probably not!!) to leave the key in the desk to stop sprinters from shutting down - just in case the compressor is as effective as a bicycle tyre pump when you want to go again.....

Over 30 years ago, I remember there being a notice on the London end of the Up Loop at Pencoed (near Bridgend) asking drivers to shut down their engines when standing at the signal- I think there may have been a hospital near-by.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Tunbridge Wells West was another location where large numbers of units were berthed overnight. During cold spells the neighbouring residents would be serenaded throughout the night by anything up to a dozen class 205s/207s thumping away... I'm sure there would be a few people that would pay good money for that experience today!

 

There must have been relief and celebration from them when the yard was closed...along with the station in 1985. Relief was, however, short-lived...the site became a supermarket.

[modfather]

How does all this sit with neighbours who might live in close proximity to the depots / sidings whatever - are there not complaints from people with this night time ying - yinging outside their bedroom window?.

 

 

 

 

 

 

used to absolutelty fine, even with the old valenta load bank... recently however, idling sprinters/08's are too loud

[The Stationmaster]

Over 30 years ago, I remember there being a notice on the London end of the Up Loop at Pencoed (near Bridgend) asking drivers to shut down their engines when standing at the signal- I think there may have been a hospital near-by.

 

 

 

Dunno about a hospital but there were a bunch of moaning residents living houses which had been built long after Pencoed Loop was opened for traffic and who made a lot of fuss. There was another loop in the area on the Down which had a similar board for the same reason.

 

 

[Lochnagar]

I did some work at Derby Etches Park depot in winter 2004/5, and some of the HST's were left running for several days over the christmas period, (which was quite suprising) and in freezing temperatures the standard arrangement was to keep one power car running to keep the train warm and operational, whilst the other power car had it's coolant drained to prevent the power unit from freezing. Certainly wouldn't like the fuel bill for 5 days worth of zero MPG! . .

[45125]

The power cars at Etches Park that were drained of coolant would be stop it leaking out. Power cars were at period filled with Shell-safe anti-freeze. Most HST power cars *issed coolant out when cold, the cooler group usually started first then various bits of the engine.

 

MML had an environmental policy to drain any power car not in use to prevent contamination of the ground and water table with anti-freeze.

 

Al Taylor.

[Trainshed Terry]

I did some work at Derby Etches Park depot in winter 2004/5, and some of the HST's were left running for several days over the christmas period, (which was quite suprising) and in freezing temperatures the standard arrangement was to keep one power car running to keep the train warm and operational, whilst the other power car had it's coolant drained to prevent the power unit from freezing. Certainly wouldn't like the fuel bill for 5 days worth of zero MPG! . .

 

And at todays prices of fuel it comes to a total off ......................................... :blink: working on the price of £1.27 a liter at the local garage.

 

Terry

[cunningduck]

And at todays prices of fuel it comes to a total off ......................................... :blink: working on the price of £1.27 a liter at the local garage.

 

Terry

 

TOCs are allowed to use red diesel are they not? Hence tax free, and I daresay bulk buying would give a small discount also.

[brushman47544]

During really cold periods, loco's were sometimes left idling all night to avoid engine damage due to coolant freezing.

and longer...

 

I remember an early 1980s post Christmas visit to a very snowy Westhouses depot. All the locos (20s and 56s) on shed were idling and the foreman confirmed they had been left running over Christmas and would continue to do so until the coal traffic restarted after the holiday or the temperatures rose above freezing.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Over 30 years ago, I remember there being a notice on the London end of the Up Loop at Pencoed (near Bridgend) asking drivers to shut down their engines when standing at the signal

There was a similar one in Gloucester.

[Sam Moss]

Red diesel would be costing somewhere around 60p per litre.