Searching For A Better BR Restaurant Buffet ?

[Bob Reid]

I think you will find that all early B4s didn't have the dampers including XP64 and early Mk2s.

 

Mark

 

 

Most of the production B4s & B5s were designed at the same time - or at least within a short time of each other (the Mark's 2-8 were used originally to identify the variant for a particular application - rather than to identify a newer or "improved" version built over time). When first drawn up however, none were shown with friction dampers, though some but not all were to receive them later as a modification (from possibly as late as 1969 onwards).

 

It's perhaps confused by Parkin calling them pre-production B4s in in the photo, when they were the Mark II production version - and were the only ones to be fitted with side pull brakes and equalisers in combination with the lack of friction dampers (recognisable by the large brake beams at either end of the bogie).

[70021 Morning Star]

Slightly off topic and, possibly, something I've missed in the discussion...

 

I'm seeking information on which way around the Restaurant Unclassified's kitchen was coupled to coaches used as 'dining cars' on the 1950s-60s BR Western Region?

 

If my understanding is correct (?), we might see an RU, with kitchen, paired with an RFO 'Dining Saloon'  and an OS (used as a 2nd diner), one on each side of the RU. But, would the kitchen-end of the RU be coupled to the RFO or to the SO?

 

Anyone?

 

Thanks,

Rick

[chrisf]

Rick, I would say off the top of my head that an RU did not have the cooking capacity to serve three vehicles.  A quick skim through some 1961 CWPs indicates that RU+SO was the norm on services where demand exceeded the seating capacity of the RU.  In that situation the aim would be to have the kitchen of the RU adjacent to the SO to save the waiters walking too far with hot food but there must have been exceptions.  The RFOs tended to work with the full kitchen cars [RK] with an RSO at the opposite end.

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Hi Chris,

I was hoping you'd pick up and respond.

 

Yes, I was also thinking about how the logistics of getting food from the kitchen would work. RU + SO makes sense, as does RU + RFO. But stretching it for RU + RFO + SO.

 

Of course this raises the question of how exactly the RFOs were operated? Two kitchens sounds unlikely. Or, I seem to recall that only First dining was offered up until a certain date, so that'd precede the RU, as well as making the whole thing manageable.

 

Fortunately this is n gauge, so no one's likely to look too closely. Think I'll put RFO closest to the locomotive, with RU kitchen facing the RFO (I read, somewhere, that kitchens faced the locomotive), and the SO coupled to the "unclassified" seating of the RU. I guess that makes sense.

 

Cheers,

Rick 

[70021 Morning Star]

.

This month's "MODEL RAIL" magazine (No.208 May 2015) contains an interesting article on the Mk1 Restaurants and Dining cars; RU, RK, RKB, RB, RF, RFO, RSO, SO, and RUO...  Doesn't say much about the pre-Mk1 (ex GWR stock), which I've covered in a project elsewhere on RMWEB, but useful nonetheless. That's in addition to a major feature on tarting up Mk1 coaches.

 

Rick

Edited April 20, 2015 by 70021 Morning Star

[sub39h]

First, a straight out of the box Mainline blue-grey model with the original windows removed and replaced with Replica plug-in type. One problem here, Replica don't produce a 3' window, so the 4' version has to be cut down and trickier still, the window vanes have to be altered.

 

Do you have any more information on how you did this conversion please?

 

Thanks

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Everyone,

   If i may just resurrect this old Mk1 RB thread, i've built some more using Comet sides on Bachmann RU donors. The first one shown is a blue-grey example, followed by yet another chocolate/cream, plus two more maroon, one with maroon ends, although these last mentioned are still only in base colours. I really must paint those replacement V-hangers!

 

 

Here's the Comet/Bachmann behind an earlier Mainline RB with new windows for comparison.

 

 

Here's the Mainline RB coupled to Lima stock.

 

 

Here's the Comet/Bachmann RB coupled to other Bachmann stock.       Cheers, Brian.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Just going slightly off-topic, but in a very similar vein, here's a Diagram 17 LMR Restaurant First using Comet sides again and another Bachmann RU donor. Lining will go on next, then lettering and numbers, followed by a coat of satin or gloss varnish, then glazing and curtains.

 

 

This is a Diag.702 Kitchen Car, again Comet sides, but this time built on to a Bachmann day coach ( i think it was a TSO?). Oddly i've done the livery before finishing the roof, that's because i painted and lined it at the same time as some other vehicles, but hadn't yet sourced the parts for the roof. In the late 60s, BR couldn't decide whether to put red stripes on these RKs or not, so for a bit of variety i'm having red stripe one side, blue stripe on the other.     BK

 

[keefer]

Love these 2 Brian, nice to see some of the lesser spotted catering cars.

 

The RF, although allocation was limited to the LMR, did have a pretty long life even making it into b/g before conversion to dia.26 and 28 RB(K). I know that the window behind the buffet counter was eventually plated over, but are these conversions otherwise similar to the RF bodywise etc.?

 

RK looks great to especially in b/g, although I suppose they were becoming a rare beast by the mid-70s. Anyone have any idea of the last rostered services for the RKs? With the decline in full dining, I think most of the duties went over to combined restaurant/buffet vehicles, with the RKB used on those services needing the most meals

Edited October 22, 2015 by keefer

[mark54]

The last rostered RK's that I can see are in the 1975-76 LMR carriage working notice.

 

The 07:29 Wolverhampton-Euston, 10:10 Euston-Birmingham NS and subsequent legs. Also rather surprisingly on the 09:05 St Pancras-Nottingham and 12:50 return.

 

Most RK workings were in specials and charters. They must have spent most of their time sitting in the carriage sidings!

 

Mark

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Keefer and Mark,

    I'm also doing a maroon RK, plus here's a link to some later condition RFs, plus a RU rebuilt to RBR diag.27, that i built recently for Robert C and his Marton Central layout. See post #113. There's also a WR diag.16 RF and others further back.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14505-marton-central/page-5

 

                                                                Cheers, Brian.

[MJI]

I am going through a few Mark 1s at the moment, looking for pictures of brakes and roof vents.

 

One of mine is W3085 as an air braked second class SO. Seem to have those old style roof vents, would it have still had them in 1982 or so?

[Flood]

The ridge style roof vents were on the first batches of Mark 1 stock until about 1954. The shell style of multiple thin sections were then used from about 1955 to 1958/59 but as they tended to corrode very quickly the original ridge style was reintroduced from around 1959. This was then replaced by the final scallop style from around 1961.

 

I have one of the 3085 to 3094 batch built in 1959 noted as having shell vents (possibly an early photo in Parkin) and one of the next batch (3095 to 3100) as having ridge vents. 3105 onwards were built from 1962 with Commonwealth bogies so had scallop vents from new.

 

By 1982 any vents that had corroded would have been replaced with the scallop style and I have seen many photos with from only one vent to virtually all being replaced. As stated before the shell style were particularly susceptible. So strictly speaking 3085 would have been built with shell vents but any number could have been replaced.

 

As usual only photos of individual vehicles can confirm details and so much may have changed over the last 30 years. Dennis Taylor's zenfolio site "80s Rail" (http://80srail.zenfolio.com/f699307188) is a great starting point, as are some photos on the Railway Heritage Register Carriage Survey Project  http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/search.asp

 

After a quick look at this second site, 3092 appears to have quite a few shell vents still intact (if not all) whereas 3091 has got mostly replacement scallop vents.

 

Thanks must go to Bob-65B for his explanation of the changes in roof vents (as far as I can recall it was on the BR Loco Hauled Coaching Stock Yahoo Group).

Edited December 20, 2015 by Flood

[MJI]

I have found one of the other vehicles in the same lot still had all shell so may as well use them to provide some differences to 3122 (as well as bogies)

[RBAGE]

Seeing all the great work on this and other threads has encouraged me to attempt an upgrade of a Mainline RB.

I've managed to get one reasonably cheap from Ebay but the images of the roof of the Mainline RB that I can find don't look the same as the Comet instructions for the roof fittings, available on their site.

Does anyone have any information about the roof detail of a prototype RB that can be worked from?

Also, is there a source of detailing parts available anywhere (small monsoon ventilators, extractor cowls, torpedo vents etc)?

Thanks,

Bob

[keefer]

sorry if it's a bit off-topic, but saw this pic recently of a b/g RU in 1974 with the older sounding 'Restaurant Car' in rail alphabet lettering.

From the Arnie Furniss (Deadman's Handle) Flickr:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/deadmans_handle/4612206883/sizes/l

[Taz]

.....

....

 

Hi, hopefully someone could help. I'm currently doing a Bachmann RU to RB conversion using comet sides which will end up in a boat train on The Balcombe project (S1767 in BR(S) green).

However I'm a bit confused as to the finish and use of one of the doors on the kitchen side (as seen above on Brian's model)

The middle door opens into the lobby next to the buffet counter. So I would have thought it would be for staff use only. I would therefore expect it to be labelled Kitchen. Mainline/Replica produced their models this way. However I notice some of the models shown in this thread do not have the Kitchen marking. The green RB in the Parkin book is also without the marking. Can anyone enlighten me as to how this door was used and what markings were/ were not carried. The second question is was the drop light on this window clear or opaque. Again the Mainline/Replica model has the window in white whilst some of the models in these pages have it body colour or clear. Does anyone have a definitive answer as to what it should have been?

 

Thanks.

[mark54]

As originally built, as you say, the door led to a small lobby. An internal door led from the lobby to the corridor and there was an outside door opposite in the corridor. Some corridor doors didn't have an external handle but were fitted with handrails (as depicted in the Mainline model). These doors were for staff use but there was no kitchen label on the external doors and the door drop-light on the kitchen side had clear glass. The doors would have normally only be used by passengers in emergency.

 

When the RB's were rebuilt in the late 1970's as RBR's the internal door was removed and the lobby became part of the bar. The kitchen side external door was then labelled kitchen and the door glass painted body colour. The corridor side door usually remained as before.

[robertcwp]

The RB is the most useful Mark I catering car. All regions, wide range of liveries (maroon, green, chocolate & cream, blueg/grey, Inter-City) and service life of around 30 years. W1646 was repainted chocolate and cream for the Bristolian in 1961 (when it was almost new) and was, I believe, the only Mark I with Commonwealth bogies to carry that livery. The WR's other choc/cream RB vehicles were all from the first batch with BR bogies (W1729-32 carrying the livery). One of that batch ran with chocolate & cream BSO W9276 as its dining trailer in the Cathedrals Express c1961.

Recent research indicates that the chocolate and cream BSO might have been W9272 rather than W9276 as reported in Railway Observer in 1961, but it's possible they were both in that livery.

[Lee-H]

Resurrecting an old thread…in the early 1970s, did the Diagram 702 Kitchen have the words “Kitchen Car” on the sides or simply “Kitchen”? Any advice greatly appreciated as I’m about to apply the transfers to my model.

[keefer]

Just spotted this, sorry @Lee-H.

Presumably you mean while in blue/grey? Most likely to have just 'Kitchen' although I wouldn't specifically rule out 'Kitchen Car' in the late '60s/v. early '70s.

Only because I've seen late '60s pics of an RU with 'Restaurant Car' and a sleeper with 'Sleeping Car'

I think, sometimes, you might even get the wording in upper-case letters! I don't know if the different variations have ever been documented so you would have to work to pictures, just to be sure.

[Lee-H]

21 hours ago, keefer said:

Just spotted this, sorry @Lee-H.

Presumably you mean while in blue/grey? Most likely to have just 'Kitchen' although I wouldn't specifically rule out 'Kitchen Car' in the late '60s/v. early '70s.

Only because I've seen late '60s pics of an RU with 'Restaurant Car' and a sleeper with 'Sleeping Car'

I think, sometimes, you might even get the wording in upper-case letters! I don't know if the different variations have ever been documented so you would have to work to pictures, just to be sure.

Thanks, Keefer. I’ve used ‘Kitchen Car’ on both sides and it looks the part now. Seems to be very few pictures around showing them in blue/grey livery so I’ve used artistic licence.

[keefer]

This was an RK picture i remembered but didn't realise it was one with 'Car' (date given as late-'60s):

M80028_Skipton by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Edited April 14, 2022 by keefer