pauliebanger Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 clickertyclack, I am sorry that my post upset you. That was not the intention. I admire you for persevering in a medium in which you feel disadvantaged I asked for clarification not to point the finger at your grammar, as you have assumed, but simply to find out what you were saying. The fact that others were also confused tends to support the need for clarification. To everyone: Just so everyone understands my viewpoint. I view this exchange as friendly banter. Whilst the points I have made are serious and backed by fact, I do not take myself too seriously. I like to make my point. I am also happy to conceed a point 'scored' by those with a different view., Yes, and even register a laugh to signify 'point taken'. You can see from Bryan's post that he has entered into the spirit of things, and from my response that I have taken it in good part. I am not criticising anyone personally. I am trying not to criticise anyone's work or opinion or abilities with the written word. I am making a claim that there are alternatives available which will suit some people. I know that is contrary to the views of the majority. This is likely to produce lively debate. The number of responses (50) and viewers (1500 plus) in a few days is perhaps a measure of the popularity of this thread. Of course, no one is forced to read the thread or contribute to it. It would be a shame, in my opinion, if this thread were locked. I'll explain why. 1) Freedom of speech. I have made statements, you all have a right to challenge the facts I have given. 2) The OP had his concerns addressd to his satisfaction after Bryan made him a generous offer. Bryan said the issue has only been raised in this thread. This thread was, therefore, a helpful source of feedback for Bryan, and a vehicle to address the concerns of his (Howes) customers. 3) After the first call to close this thread, Bryan found a way to enhance his sound sets. This has the potential to benefit all his customers. That must be a good thing. And a good thing the thread had not been locked. Who can predict what any of us may learn or discover if this debate continues. After all, neither side has anything to hide. Kind regards and friendly felicitations to all, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I am still waiting for the Class 37/0 sounds that cassey jones asked to hear in the video. In the meantime, will any loksound user explain the procedure to change a loksound V3.5 Class 37/4 sound set to a 37/0 or vice versa, please? Would this be the same methodology for Howes, SWD, Olivia's Trains etc or are there any differences to take into account? Thanks. Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassey jones Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Hi Paul, I would have thought and hoped the 37/0 and 37/4 would have been recorded from original loco's? Rather than altering one to create another. C.J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Paul, I think the threads dead in the water as far as the OPs question - long since answered. It might be more prudent rather than to add any more to this thread (which by title is linked to a perceived problem with the Howes sound), to create your own "well what do you think? " thread and offer up a full range of comparative 37/0 sounds...... Just a thought Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 CJ, I am sorry, my question could have been asked differently, so I will elaborate. Unfortunately, I took it as read that the original recordings would be from the respective locomotives. That's what customers would expect, isn't it? If I had bought a loksound V3.5 with the sounds of a Class 37/4, then realised that I wanted a Class 37/0 instead, what would be needed to exchange the unwanted sound set and replace them with the ones I needed? I then asked (paraphrased) ''would this procedure be the same whoever created the sound files?'' Hope I've made it clearer this time. Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixteen 12by 10s Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 The main differencesbetween the refurb and original locos are, during the start up andthe field divert speeds. 37 0's Battery switch on, oneding on the fire bell master control to EO(engine only) oil prime pump will run. Now, in preservation it is common practice, when a loco has been standing, to run the fuel prime pump by the use of its button,, but on the big railway, the start button would be pressed. Clunk, as the start contactors close, followed by the whirl ans the main generator, that is used as a big motor, turns over the engine, the driver will keep the start button held in, until the oil pressure light goes dim. Clunk as the start button is released. Engine running Refurbished Battery switch on, one ding on the fire bell master control to EO (engine only) oil prime pump will run. The start button is pressed and the starter motors, will engage When the engine has fired the starters will drop out Engine running The starters are basically a big starter motor as fitted to cars. The week field speeds, I don't have my notes with me but the first one comes in I think 37 0 22mph 37 refurb 17mph The only other noticeable difference, and you would need to be a real expert for this one, is the 37 0 have a slightly moor violent power pick up Gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Are you sure Gary? The procedure you've got for the refurbished loco's pretty well represents most diesel loco's I remember in the 70s and 80s (except those with timed start circuits)..... With the same B.I.S. in, Ding on the fire-bell, Master Controller to E.O. to build up some oil & fuel pressure then press & hold the start button. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixteen 12by 10s Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Hi Bob for some reason thefirst part of the post was missing,see the edit Gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Cheers Gary! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Gary, Thanks so much for these insights. Now even more modellers will know what sounds should be emitted from their model thanks to this thread. The main differencesbetween the refurb and original locos are, during the start up andthe field divert speeds. 37 0's Battery switch on, oneding on the fire bell master control to EO(engine only) oil prime pump will run. Now, in preservation it is common practice, when a loco has been standing, to run the fuel prime pump by the use of its button,, but on the big railway, This implies that the starting sounds of a preserved loco will include a period of both engine oil and fuel priming, followed by the actual turning of the engine (by dynamo unrefurbished or starter motor refurbished), whereas the sounds of a 'working' loco, would not include the fuel primer sounds. Is that correct? It certainly agrees with the recordings I have of working locos, both 37/0 and 37/4. This would mean that to be prototypically accurate, the model's sound set would need to be specifically designed to represent either 'working' or 'preserved' operating practices, as well as being distict between 37/0 or 37/4. Have I got that right? the start button would be pressed. Clunk, as the start contactors close, followed by the whirl ans the main generator, that is used as a big motor, turns over the engine, the driver will keep the start button held in, until the oil pressure light goes dim. Clunk as the start button is released. Engine running Refurbished Battery switch on, one ding on the fire bell Would this bell be audible outside the cab? I don't recall any commercial sound set including this, but I could easily be wrong on that. master control to EO (engine only) oil prime pump will run. The start button is pressed and the starter motors, will engage When the engine has fired the starters will drop out Engine running The starters are basically a big starter motor as fitted to cars. OK. Fully understood. The week field speeds, I don't have my notes with me but the first one comes in I think 37 0 22mph 37 refurb 17mph Ok. This has implications for the target speeds in the sound set, thanks for highlighting the difference. The only other noticeable difference, and you would need to be a real expert for this one, is the 37 0 have a slightly moor violent power pick up Thanks again for you really helpful post. From Gary's descriptions, it seems highly likely that some locos representing ' big railway' operations might actually be playing sounds from 'preserved' practices. In order to assist, can anyone tell us what's needed to change sound sets on a loksound V3.5? Is reprogramming the loksound the only way? Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2011 to be honest i dont think you wouldnt hear the field divert. You do feel it in the loco though. The 37s ive driven were all the key in, into engine only, oil prime pump for 2 mins method then hit the start button and hope for the best! Those were a combo of 37/0, and 37/5+6, not sure if a 37/4 is the same as a 5/6 though? The only locos ive driven where you had to hold the start button down were class 20s and those were 20/3 (drs) so highly modded but the old way of starting! Firebell, yes you would just about hear it from outside but it would be pretty quiet, same with the aws self test "Buzz-ding" horn/bell noise. Thing is there are so many combos of mods, changes etc that to get a completly prototypical pound for a certain loco would really involve actually recording it for all its little quirks, not easy if a loco has been cut up or a non runner! As an example the last 37 i drove, 261, was pretty much untouched. The "aws clear" was a good old fashioned bell. Where as 37259 had an electronic "ping" as most locos have now I think the differences between preserved and mainline practices are negligable to be honest. Whatever happens if you dont do it right it isnt going to start! Id be inclined to agree about non refurbs being more how can i put it "meaty", i think its all to do with the time it takes the loco to "spool back" now rather embarisingly i cant remember what the thing is called that does it, the weak field generator or something? Its basically like a big mechanical clock with contacts in it. i certainly remember seeing one in 37038 and 029 but i cant remember if it was the same in the 37/6s or if it was a different type? With a bit of practice you could jockey the throttle back and forth slightly so that when you pulled away from a stand the higher contacts would be energised giving you that trademark 37 growl, have a look at my youtube channel to see a drs 37 leaving crewe doing just that, i never drove like that of course! My most prototypical loco is my fastline 66, the sounds on that were recorded off the real thing, even right down to the buffer clash so thats as close to 301 as its gonna get, just about the only sound missing on it is one of me stepping off into the ballast and nearly breaking my ankle (as i actually did!) As for changing sounds between sub classes then yes a reblow is the only way Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2011 Cheers for the reply Jim/Bryan! For such a small change to the program it would give a lot more versatility to the end user, inc me! I just got into the habit of doing 121 & 123 that way with mine, even though I don't need it cos I've got the originals! Look forward to seeing what you can do with the 'one minute.' kev. spent the evening in "howes world", sorry bryans workshop, and i have come away with a slightly modified class 37/0 chip with the mod you have asked for cassey, it has the ability to turn both the horn and compressor sound up and down using cv 121 and 122, much in the way you turn the overall volume down on cv63. i wont be able to video it until next week though. to be honest 99% of howes buyers will never use the function but it is now activated for those who want to have a play. as for the experiment extending the time between random sounds bryan has also cracked that one so the compressor comes on far less frequently, can be anything upto 5 mins between random activations, not going to say how he did it, mainly coz i dont understand how he did it!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixteen 12by 10s Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Hi just to add to the difference between a “preservation†start and a “big railway†start, this is the procedure the Class Forty Appeal use, the reason it it so long winded is, if we brake it guess who gets to fix it. All fluid levels will be checked The engine will be taken off compression, this involves undoing (in the case of a 12csvt) 12 large decompression bolts. BIS closed, fire bell ding. Master controller to EO oil priming pump will run the engine will now be “bared†over, this involves turning the engine over, with a bar placed in notches in the fly wheel. This is to check the unit is free, and there is no water in the cylinders. Redo compression bolts run fuel priming pump, a slight change in the sound will be herd as the system is pressurized. Press the start button The rest of the questions, I do not have the answers to, but give me a few days, and I will have a look at my notes I think the preservationist, just take a lot more care than would be on the network, where the driver would jump in the cab, master controller to EO, and hit the start button a few things to be aware of. Not all EE locos are the same, ie, the class 50's have a hand oil priming pump the Slugs, I haven’t got a clue Gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevpeo Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 spent the evening in "howes world", sorry bryans workshop, and i have come away with a slightly modified class 37/0 chip with the mod you have asked for cassey, it has the ability to turn both the horn and compressor sound up and down using cv 121 and 122, much in the way you turn the overall volume down on cv63. i wont be able to video it until next week though. to be honest 99% of howes buyers will never use the function but it is now activated for those who want to have a play. as for the experiment extending the time between random sounds bryan has also cracked that one so the compressor comes on far less frequently, can be anything upto 5 mins between random activations, not going to say how he did it, mainly coz i dont understand how he did it!! Cheers Jim, A big thanks to Bryan from all Howes chip users is in order I think. (I hope this doesn't mean I live in Howes-ville! ) kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassey jones Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Thank you Bryan, Thank you Jim. C.J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 30, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2011 Hi The engine will be taken off compression, this involves undoing (in the case of a 12csvt) 12 large decompression bolts. BIS closed, fire bell ding. Master controller to EO oil priming pump will run the engine will now be “bared†over, this involves turning the engine over, with a bar placed in notches in the fly wheel. This is to check the unit is free, and there is no water in the cylinders. Redo compression bolts run fuel priming pump, I think the preservationist, just take a lot more care than would be on the network, where the driver would jump in the cab, master controller to EO, and hit the start button obviously i've simplified the startup procedure i wrote in my post but yes all fluid levels are checked, engine checked visually etc. another thing to take into account is time constraints, i should imagine the above scenario takes a fair bit of time to carry out and on a preserved line, or indeed taking a preserved loco mainline, you have the luxury of knowing when it will be running so have the time to give it a damn good checking over top to bottom whereas we used to have 20 mins to prep a loco, (basically check everything, get the air up, check safety systems etc), i always did a full prep if i was booked to do so, or even have a look in the engine bay if it was already running just for my own peace of mind. a fellow driver once went into the engine bay of a 66 after he'd started it only to find the rocker cover hatches wide open and oil being spewed out all over the engine room, a fitter had been in to do work then forgot to put the covers back!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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