DP2

[frobisher]

This is obviously purely hypothetical and all that and only sparked off by the current discussion around both Dapol and Heljan producing DP2 in 00.

 

Simply put, if DP2 hadn't been damaged beyond economical repair what would her fate have been?

 

Would she have been in effect commisioned as one of the Class 50's and operated with the rest of the fleet (gaining the MU cables and any other differences in equipment)?

Were her differences significant enough to not make that viable, if so what would have EE wanted to do with her next?

 

I suspect that if she had continued on alongside the 50's she'd have probably fallen by the wayside with the refurbishment programme being that little bit older than the rest.

 

Obviously no right answers here

[45125]

As DP2 had very little in common with the 50s it would have probably have stayed where it was on the ER, taking its turns with the Deltics as was when it had its "minor mishap".

[melmerby]

As DP2 had very little in common with the 50s it would have probably have stayed where it was on the ER, taking its turns with the Deltics as was when it had its "minor mishap".

 

But not so different that the remains were used as a pool of Class 50 spares.

 

Keith

[Baby Deltic]

This is obviously purely hypothetical and all that and only sparked off by the current discussion around both Dapol and Heljan producing DP2 in 00.

 

Simply put, if DP2 hadn't been damaged beyond economical repair what would her fate have been?

 

Would she have been in effect commisioned as one of the Class 50's and operated with the rest of the fleet (gaining the MU cables and any other differences in equipment)?

Were her differences significant enough to not make that viable, if so what would have EE wanted to do with her next?

 

I suspect that if she had continued on alongside the 50's she'd have probably fallen by the wayside with the refurbishment programme being that little bit older than the rest.

 

Obviously no right answers here

 

DP2 would have probably have been cannibalized and withdrawn by the early 70's under the National Traction Plan as a non-standard design.

[Pennine MC]

Would she have been in effect commisioned as one of the Class 50's and operated with the rest of the fleet (gaining the MU cables and any other differences in equipment)?

 

I'd guess that the various electronic goodies that the 50s were loaded with would have militated against that, either technically or operationally. Looking back at the history of one-offs and prototypes on BR, with the odd exception they dont have a great track record of being 'absorbed' into any production fleet. I'm inclined to agree with Al's assessment, it would have been very useful on the ECML (where those concerned knew how to use it) and might have carried on in a similar way to Falcon on the WR, until its uniqueness became too much of a nuisance.

[Guest jim s-w]

Besides which large logo livery would have looked odd. :D

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[bigd]

Large Logo?

 

A bit like this:

 

http://fictitiousliveries.fotopic.net/p16338608.html

 

Though I think Rail Blue Suits

http://fictitiousliveries.fotopic.net/p45214293.html

[Leicester Thumper]

If I am honest, had all the odds and ends of these prototypes had gone through the 'what if?' stage in their lives, I dare say the fate of those locomotives would have been the same as Baby Deltic suggested; scrappage.

[BrushVeteran]

I suppose if the DPS can build a new 'Baby Deltic' then it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for them to tackle a DP2, all they need is the centre of a scrap 50 bodyshell, they have two cabs off 8 and 21, and some extra strong loctite! Seriously though it could be done.

[plarailfan]

DP2 was cut up in 1968 at Vulcan foundry, BR would probably have given it back around that time anyway, so it may well have ended up with dispoal at the same time and place if it hadn't come to grief, as a lot of it's innards ended up in class 50's. - it was a useful piece of kit and only the body and bogies would probably have been sold off to preservationists, if any had come forward, everyone was trying to save steam at Barry in 1968.

I read somewhere, that DP2 started out on the production line as a Deltic, but was then diverted onto the DP2 project, as it's construction hadn't progressed very far.

[keefer]

i'd heard that differently - that as the DP2 project came to pass, it was easier and cheaper to add one more deltic bodyshell to the existing production run, as opposed to building an entirely new 'one-off' loco.

 

the way i read it, DP2 only looked like a deltic as this was the quickest, cheapest way to get the new gubbins into a main-line capable loco.

 

the thing that puzzles me, is that DP2 ran so well, covering many miles as expected, often under deltic loadings and by all accounts was very successful - so why did they then fill it full of extra electronic and other equipment, which ultimately either didn't work as well as expected or wasn't used at all?

a common opinion seems to be if BR had ordered 50 DP2s (necessarily with flat-front cabs) they wouldn't have had as much bother as they did with the 50s (and of course there wouldn't be as much stuff to remove on refurbishment!)

[Baby Deltic]

DP2 was a success because it didn't have all the electronic crud crammed into the class 50's. I think BR may have had a hand in the addition of the 'embrionic brain' to the class 50 design. At the time the class 50's were coming into service, BR had also rebuilt 10 class 71's as class 74's, which were also packed full of solid state electronic control equipment. Even though it was unsucessful at the time, it paved the way for the modern computer controlled traction equipment that does work (most of the time).

[lmsforever]

We have enough deisels preserved now and many are just rusting away in the corners of preserved lines all over the UK ,there are a finite number of volenteers to work on them so we do not a new DP2 .It would have been scrapped as non standard even if it had not had the crash along with many early units .

[melmerby]

i'd heard that differently - that as the DP2 project came to pass, it was easier and cheaper to add one more deltic bodyshell to the existing production run, as opposed to building an entirely new 'one-off' loco.

 

 

 

Apparently it was Deltic bodyshell No.18 in the production sequence.

 

Keith

[slilley]

Just to take the "what if" a stage further, what if the BTC had accepted Brush's tender submitted in 1960 as part of the tender exercise for the Standard Type 4s that was a Brush built loco fitted with what proved to be a Class 50 engine. The Brush outline drawing which I have seen suggests the loco would have been "Falcon" like but with a Class 50 style bodyside grille.

 

That particular bid was the cheapest the BTC received at £95,250 per loco.Cheaper than EE's own tender as it happens. As it was the bid submitted by BRCW/AEI/Sulzer won the day and D0260 "Lion" could have been the first of the class.

 

Regards

 

Simon

[pete_mcfarlane]

DP2 was a success because it didn't have all the electronic crud crammed into the class 50's. I think BR may have had a hand in the addition of the 'embrionic brain' to the class 50 design. At the time the class 50's were coming into service, BR had also rebuilt 10 class 71's as class 74's, which were also packed full of solid state electronic control equipment. Even though it was unsucessful at the time, it paved the way for the modern computer controlled traction equipment that does work (most of the time).

 

I believe that the 50s and 74s electronics couldn't withstand the vibrations that it got in a locomotive and bits would shake loose The electronics technology of the time was mainly intended for static use (nice airconditioned computer rooms etc) or in combat aircraft and wasn't up to the stresses of rail use.

[Baby Deltic]

I believe that the 50s and 74s electronics couldn't withstand the vibrations that it got in a locomotive and bits would shake loose The electronics technology of the time was mainly intended for static use (nice airconditioned computer rooms etc) or in combat aircraft and wasn't up to the stresses of rail use.

 

I believe that on the class 74's the circuit boards were in racks with slide in connectors like the 'eurocard' style computer boards used in the early systems, which may have explained why vibration was such a problem. The boards were probably fairly easy to change, but expensive.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

DP2 was a success because it didn't have all the electronic crud crammed into the class 50's. I think BR may have had a hand in the addition of the 'embrionic brain' to the class 50 design. At the time the class 50's were coming into service, BR had also rebuilt 10 class 71's as class 74's, which were also packed full of solid state electronic control equipment. Even though it was unsucessful at the time, it paved the way for the modern computer controlled traction equipment that does work (most of the time).

 

Had EE the final say in the class 50 design, they would have been more or less identical to DP2 internally. It was BRs insistance on a number of advanced capabilities, such as a new anti-wheelslip and slow-speed control, that over-complicated them. In addition, all these flashy gizmos did no favours to the class 50's - and almost all English Electric design's - chief achillies heal, the main generator.

 

As for DP2, it was a known quantity on the ER, and a proven performer. I suspect that it would have been kept on assisting with ECML diagrams until a major failure or such like would have done for it. It probably would not have lasted beyond the mid-1970s owing to its non-standard nature.

[sixteen 12by 10s]

I can confirm that there was a problem of vibration damage to the class 50 electronics. Most of the electronic circuits, are built up on paxoline boards with components soldered to studs, the whole assembly is then coated in an anti vibration, silicon rubber compound, in an attempt to stop the thing shaking to bits. The silicon rubber makes fault finding fun.

 

If you ask me, I think the 50's were overcomplicated for there time, and reliability would have been much improved if they had stuck to the proven design of DP2's control system

 

Gary

 

 

[slilley]

The irony is that in a document I have, that was prepared for the BR Board setting out the case for the acquisition of what became the Class 50s, it does refer to them as DP2 locomotives.

 

Regards

 

Simon

[the penguin of doom]

Just nosing in on this thread to ask if anyone out there has a decent roof shot of the No. 2 end?

 

Anyone?.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[AMJ]

We have enough deisels preserved now and many are just rusting away in the corners of preserved lines all over the UK ,there are a finite number of volenteers to work on them so we do not a new DP2 .It would have been scrapped as non standard even if it had not had the crash along with many early units .

If the current thinking about trying to save (at least) one of ever class of loco had existed years ago then the Warships that ended up in Barry Scrapyard would have been saved now.

 

As DELTIC ended up in the Science Museum I think that DP2 might have been an NRM loco.

 

As more and more of the public that visit preserved railways are not old enough to remember steam on the mainline all they can remember are diesels so the like of Wensleydale etc that rely on these rather than steam will come into their element. I think that you need to be well over 50 to remember steam now as 1968 was about 43 years ago.

[the penguin of doom]

If the current thinking about trying to save (at least) one of ever class of loco had existed years ago then the Warships that ended up in Barry Scrapyard would have been saved now.

 

As DELTIC ended up in the Science Museum I think that DP2 might have been an NRM loco.

 

As more and more of the public that visit preserved railways are not old enough to remember steam on the mainline all they can remember are diesels so the like of Wensleydale etc that rely on these rather than steam will come into their element. I think that you need to be well over 50 to remember steam now as 1968 was about 43 years ago.

 

I'd agree with you AMJ. I think, had DP2 not been involved in the crash, she'd have lasted just long enough to raise the interest of the preservationists. I site the prototype HST as a backing for this theory. DP2 would probably not have lasted long after the 50's were introduced, but being a prototype, I'd imagine there would be more preserveability with her than some of the larger numbered classes that were lost at the same time.

 

History shows that there was plenty of interest in Falcon, but that daft contract prevented her from being saved from the cutters torch.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Baby Deltic]

Chances are, BR would have bought DP2 off EE at scrap value once its purpose had been served, and it may have had the same proviso in the contract as Falcon when BR bought it off Brush at scrap value.

[the penguin of doom]

Chances are, BR would have bought DP2 off EE at scrap value once its purpose had been served, and it may have had the same proviso in the contract as Falcon when BR bought it off Brush at scrap value.

 

Thats a fair point BD. They did it with Falcon. No reason why they wouldn't have done it with DP2.