class26 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Hi everyone, I am totally confused here. I went DCC about 2 weeks before Christmas 2010. Gaugemaster prodigy advanced system. I had just one Heljan class 26 converted professionally (I will not name the place here) and it was with sound. This is what happened. After approx 2 hours of working (not continuous but over a period of approx 1 week the sound just died one day. I returned it to the converter and a new speaker was inserted. The same happened again at roughly the same time interval. Another new speaker. Once again , after approx 2 hours of life it died. Returned to supplier for third time. This time it was decided that the chip must be faulty and sure enough , it was diagnosed (not sure how) that the chip was giving out all kinds of faulty information. New chip AND speaker inserted. So just to recap thats 4 speakers and 2 chips. Well its now worked for about 2 hours and yet again its just failed. Just to be clear its the sound that fails every time. The loco still works , just without sound. you can all probably imagine how I am not too pleased with all this, 4 speakers and 2 chips in 5 weeks !! Has anyone else had experiences like this? Has anyone got any ideas ? I feel like asking for my money back and returning to anologue . I only went DCC for the sound in the first place. HELP !!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2011 what volume level did you have the loco at, i know Heljan locos do take a bit current draw and if the loco is at full volume then it may well be frying the chip, that has been a cause of such problems in the past with other members chips personally i've not had a chip blow (i've got 26 sound chipped locos!) but the only one i have had problems with, cutting in and out has been a Heljan 33, i'd say speak to the supplier again too dont let it put you off though, my first attempt at dcc was with a lenz compact and that confused the heck out of me so much so i sold all my dcc stuff, controller, chips etc in frustration and stuck with analog, eventually i went back to dcc and have never looked back, i still dont understand how it all works and leave it to the professionals to install and program!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loickebros Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Dont have doubts DCC sound is definately the way forward. Souds like the thermal cut out is cutting in on the decoder when it stops working have you tried leaving it for 20-30 mins & trying it again to see if the sound returns? Heljan locos are notorious for high current consumption which can make the decoders run hot they have a thermal cut out built in which cuts the sound but not other functions to protect the decoder from damage. Regards Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mr.S.corn78 Posted January 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hi, i would check to make sure that the decoder hasn't been covered with tape or put in any sleaving as this will warm the chip up. Other than that, what everyone else is suggesting. cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class26 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hi all, Just to say a big thank you for the answers. I`ll certainly be taking your advice Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2011 Another tip - make sure you aren't stalling the loco, keeping it running against a buffer stop for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NoggintheNog Posted January 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2011 I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious one here given its just the sound system blowing. Wrong impedance speakers (100 ohm instead of 8 or whatever) or a speaker install that shorts itself to the track somehow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think your dealer is being very patient and at least admitting the fault requires replacements. I personally don't like sound and it would be the last thing that I'd want on my layout DCC or DC. If it isn't the speaker or the chip then there is maybe one thing left - the controller. At least your neighbours will appreciate the peace and quiet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 The problem is definitely related to overload and possible overheating. You have not specified the make of the sound chip. if it is ESU then it shouldn't struggle with a Heljan unless it is a Micro. the V3.5 is a tough chip. One of the treasons that Heljans draw a lot of power is (hearsay, not hands on experience) that the wheels are inclined to oxidise for some reason and the resistance increases. If the dealer has diagnosed a blown speaker more than once then your complaint must stay with him. If you wish to solve this problem yourself then you will need to ask whether the ESU supplied speaker has been used. If not, that could well be the problem. It is unwise, for example, to run the Micro oblong speaker on the V3.5 chip. Nevertheless i have run 50ohm speakers on a Micro but would not do so on a V3.5 due to the extar power this chip puts into the speaker. 8ohms speakers and even 32 ohm speakers will kill the chip in short order. If this is not an ESU chip and you will need to ask the dealer what make it is. Again, has the recommended speaker been used? Be aware that the thermal cut out will operate only if the current draw is way above the decoder threshold for a period of time and the time taken is within the usual parameters but......normally, the loco just stops and after a short cool down period will go again. Loss of sound is directly related to the speaker and output transformer on the chip. if the speaker is compromised or the wrong ohmage or indeed wattage, this will cause problems such as you are experiencing. You must remain with the dealer on this and, if you obtain a refund, buy elsewhere. There are lots of sound equipped Heljan locos out there running quite happily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 If it is a later release class 26 with shiny wheels then we can discount the oxidisation theory - Heljan changed their wheel specifications at around the time they released the class 58. owes are selling wheel packs to update older models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Another point to note is that the underneath of the Heljan pcb can get very close to the metal block around the motor. As mentioned by the users of Airthrey Park (and probably many others) putting a couple of strips of insulation tape on the underneath of the pcb where the components attach is certainly not a bad idea and could well save a chip or two. We had a Heljan 47 with a Lenz chip that ran ok without the body on but only sat still and flashed the lights once the body was added. This was because the slightly fatter plug in new Lenz chips caused an intermitent short as the body pressed down on the plug and caused the underneath of the pcb to be close to the large metal block. The use of a couple of thicknesses of insulation tape has solved this problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class26 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 If it is a later release class 26 with shiny wheels then we can discount the oxidisation theory - Heljan changed their wheel specifications at around the time they released the class 58. owes are selling wheel packs to update older models. It does have shiny wheels Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoworks Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 i have NO idea about the guts of the model, but as a 'try', could you install a second normal chip with enough oomph to feed power to the motor and disconnect the motor output from the sound chip?? it may take a bit of CV jiggling to get the loco movement to match the sounds? but this would tell you if there was too much being asked from the original install. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 i have NO idea about the guts of the model, but as a 'try', could you install a second normal chip with enough oomph to feed power to the motor and disconnect the motor output from the sound chip?? it may take a bit of CV jiggling to get the loco movement to match the sounds? but this would tell you if there was too much being asked from the original install. This won't work. Most sound chips with motor control need a motor connected to use BEMF to control the sound playback. No motor, no sound. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 20, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 20, 2011 i have NO idea about the guts of the model, but as a 'try', could you install a second normal chip with enough oomph to feed power to the motor and disconnect the motor output from the sound chip?? it may take a bit of CV jiggling to get the loco movement to match the sounds? but this would tell you if there was too much being asked from the original install. I wouldn't be touching the insides of the model; the OP has paid for a 'pro' installation and any mods. should be left to the 'pro', particularly given the likely cost. Sounds like a good suggestion for the 'pro' to try though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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