How much to offer for ex-exhibition layout?

[James]

A good way to value hand built models for insurance purposes is an amount which would pay for a professional to build a replacement to the same standard. The main investment in many models is time and I feel many people only account for the material costs. If a layout was destroyed in a fire for instance, that could five, ten or more years wasted.

 

Getting something similar professionally built is going to cost around £2k I would imagine.

And the rest!

 

For a decent professional model maker, £2,000 doesn't buy as much time as people may think.

[Pennine MC]

A good way to value hand built models is an amount which would pay for a professional to build a replacement to the same standard.

 

 

For insurance purposes, or the OP's purpose?

[James]

For insurance purposes, or the OP's purpose?

For insurance purposes - sorry missed that bit out - I knew what I meant though...

[Kenton]

As has been said, a mutually agreeable price is the best way forward,

This is why a guide price is of great importance to all concerned. It doesn't stop someone over valuing because they reallly want it at any price but at least it gives some idea where to start to at least be considered.

If the alternative genuinely is the skip then anything that is "worth the trouble" is better than nothing.

 

The fact that so many of these so called auctions are hidden in myth, mystery and smoking mirrors means that you can make a really valid offer and have it ignored because the seller had a different idea (perhaps wanted to sell only to a club, or to keep it local, or among friends, or even export it out of country out of further sight) and you never get to know what the winning bid was (so you know next time). At least that works better on eBay.

[298]

It certainly brings the insurance value of some layouts into question...

 

Not really... In terms of insurance I treat layouts and stock as I would my household coverage, or personal effects on my holiday cover; i.e. new for old. For these I do factor in how much it would cost to replace the layout and stock like for like - even if prices have since increased. If I get my items nicked, or damaged, I would expect to replace them with what is lost - and the insurance would consider the same.

 

Considering second-hand resale value of a layout would be different to insurance value; as most people would not consider buying a ten year old layout for the same price as it would cost to build it brand new - unless it was very special.

 

I see it more like Car insurance or Building cover, where the age and physical condition is taken into account. Our neighbours recently suffered a leaking flat roof that brought down an portion of internal ceiling. The insurance paid for the ceiling but not the roof, which was acknowledged to be well past the end of it's useful life.

 

Like for like replacement might work for household consumables, but you'll end up paying more through higher premiums and policy excesses. But I can't see that working for layouts or stock, as with the latter you wouldn't expect an insurer to replace a pair of early Hornby HST Power cars worth no more than £25 with the newer model worth five times as much. It's more of an issue to ensure a given item has a recognised value, which should be fairly easy to decide for RTR, kit/scratchbuilt items, and layouts.

[underbank56a]

And again, thanks for more replies. It seems clear that such layouts tend to sell for far less than I imagined which is good for me I hope. I'll try to push them into giving me a figure and take it from there - if they won't then I think I'll suggest about £300, which I think is probably the amount of money they'd save if they took it apart and re-used what they could,i.e. control panel, points, motors, and some of the track and wood. If it goes to bids, then I'll probably go for about £600 and hope for the best. It in interesting to hear other comments, eg the size which will of course make it unsuitable for most people who don't have a spare room so big, so that will put others off. If I can get it for £300-£600 that would be brilliant for me as I could do a lot to it with the other money I've put aside and make my local model shop a happy man!

[Coombe Barton]

It'd have to be a darned good layout for £600 for me.

[mike morley]

At an exhibition not too long ago ago I had an identical conversation to this where I made the remark that if I offered the owner of the layout we were standing in front of £100 for it I had no idea if he'd laugh at me or bite my hand off. The gist of his response was that neither had he any idea if he ought to laugh at me or bite my hand off.

 

A couple of weeks later I had an identical conversation with a different group of people in front of another layout at a different exhibition. The owner of this layout (Which came in the alright, nothing special category and was inferior in every way to the one featured in the previous conversation) informed me that he had recently rejected an offer of four grand!

 

I think we can deduce from this that what you might get for a layout bears no resemblance whatsoever so what it's actually worth.

[Pennine MC]

 

I think we can deduce from this that what you might get for a layout bears no resemblance whatsoever so what it's actually worth.

 

Or that some people tell porkies

[PaulRhB]

It'd have to be a darned good layout for £600 for me.

Ah but then John you are looking at it from your skill level and knowing what you can produce. As a modellers skill level increases the they are less likely to value the time and techniques that they can bring to it anyway. Only a realisation of lack of time because of other commitments then gives it value again. I know a very good modeller who bought a well finished rc tank because he just didn't have time anymore as his other hobbies and family made it unlikely he would be able to do it in a reasonable time and he wanted one.

The OP seems to have got a fair idea of the best tack to take in this situation and can consider all angles and possibilities so I guess this has worked.

I've only sold one layout I've built and got a good price and it remains on the circuit as part of a bigger layout virtually unchanged and still reliable, with all the original wiring and track, after more than 16 years so I guess I built it well and I only had it for 5 of those years. I think that proves in some cases a layout can be worth more than the recoverable parts. I covered what I paid for all the materials used but not any of the time.

I've had offers for the current layout, though no price offers, and out of curiosity roughly valued the parts. That's a dilemma I'll have to face if I have to sell it one day but with the experience from the last one telling me that if I found the right person I would sell it rather than strip it but I'm not going to throw away money that can be recycled. Tortoise motors go for years

[kevinlms]

At an exhibition not too long ago ago I had an identical conversation to this where I made the remark that if I offered the owner of the layout we were standing in front of £100 for it I had no idea if he'd laugh at me or bite my hand off. The gist of his response was that neither had he any idea if he ought to laugh at me or bite my hand off.

 

A couple of weeks later I had an identical conversation with a different group of people in front of another layout at a different exhibition. The owner of this layout (Which came in the alright, nothing special category and was inferior in every way to the one featured in the previous conversation) informed me that he had recently rejected an offer of four grand!

 

I think we can deduce from this that what you might get for a layout bears no resemblance whatsoever so what it's actually worth.

 

My club a few years ago was asked to provide a price guide to a commercial layout, one of the world's largest in fact.

The long time owners were retiring & had had it on the market for a couple of years at least, with little interest. It had got to the stage where they were considering a demolition party for their family and friends.

 

B)

 

Anyway this fellow contacted us, to come with him for a look to see if it was worth the asking price. Don't know what it was, but I believe it was a multiple of its annual gross income. The layout, due to its size and construction methods was vitually original state = basically 30 years old & used 6 days a week in summer & 2 in winter or about 250 days a year.

 

He asked us what the replacement cost of the layout and stock would be. We told him in our view that was the wrong approach & that he should be looking at the scrap value of something so old. Our view was that it was well over due for a major rebuild.

 

This layout had 60 or so standard Lima & Hornby locos, of which their maintenance cards revealed all were 20 plus years old. So the question came down to how much a 2nd hand dealer would give him for those = very little we said. The same applied to the rollingstock & the track work. There must be at least 200 points, almost all appeared original.

He thanked us for our time and I believe made an offer, which was rejected.

 

A couple of months later, another fellow invited us up to see "what could be done to make the layout & shop single person operation", since he'd just bought it. There was a dividing wall with the shop on one side and on the other side a raised operating deck, overlooking the layout.

 

On the layout, besides the terminus station & yards, there were 8 loops of track, some looping around, in and out tunnels, others a simple oval, taking between 30 seconds & 5 minutes to complete a circuit. We suggested that the longest loops should be broken into sections, so that perhaps 4 trains could circulate on these loop automatically. For this work, he would make donations to the club. That's when it all went pearshaped as his idea of a donation for our time was a long way from ours.

 

No way were we going to accept a handful of dollars per hour, for however many attended after a 30 minute drive, for what is after all a commercial layout. So all the layout ever got in the way of an upgrade (not by us, of course) was a sprinkling of greenery & few new locos.

 

I went up (professionally) to investigate various electrical issues - no power packs (about 30 of them) were marked in any way as to their function and he had no idea what to do. It took hours to work out what they did and to label them with an indication of their function. Various suggestions to improve the operation & to get various "dead bits" of the layout working again fell on deaf ears.

 

But it seems he has recently sold it & it has new owners.

 

Kevin Martin

[Coombe Barton]

Ah but then John you are looking at it from your skill level and knowing what you can produce.

 

No. I'm looking at it at a ten year old mechanical and transportable model that's been moved around on many occasions, built from components that have a limited mechanical life. None of what I've said relates to the quality of the scenery or the 'modelling' but how well the inffrastructure of basebaords and track is holding up and what level of maintenance is going to keep in running.Taking the previous double slip example, there's a replacement cost but also a making good cost, that being compounded by the probable desire to make the repair invisible or at least fit in. That's the hard part.

[peach james]

It's a hard judgement.

 

Depends, mostly, on 2 factors: Who's buying, and who's selling.

 

I have bought several mechanical toys (3.5" railway engines, and my 4" traction). The cost of them to be built would far exceed what I paid for any of them. (that's getting a professional to make them). The value of them is open to total debate- is it scrap iron value, or is it what I paid, or is it what a professional machinist would charge to build the same on a strict contract basis?

 

Same thing with a model railway. I "bought" the last club layout, for the grand sum of $300. Lifted the track, and have reused perhaps that much worth of it to buy new. Everything else, went into the bin. But, the purchase was so that the club could fund the replacement layout. So, I got something, the club got something, and everyone walked away happy. As long as no-one feels taken in a deal, I don't see how it can be viewed as a bad deal.

 

James

[298]

Might it be possible that someone from within the club has made an offer, and although the other members would like to see it go to him, are really just trying to guess how much it's worth...? He may be expecting to adopt it for free, or perhaps even there is some reluctance and if the layout has to go then it'd better be to someone else.

 

Just conspiracy theories i've come up with, based on my own experiences. I'd be happy to see one club member I know take on one of our layouts for a nominal sum as I know it will be ensured a good home and has the space to have it set up. I also know of one prolific exhibitor/seller who put a "For Sale" sign on a layout, and it went to two people because they knew a third was interested but they didn't want to go to him because they didn't think it'd get looked after....

 

(For the record, he builds small shunting layouts to a high standard, usually about 12' x 1' and they sell for about £600 after a few years and dozen or so shows.

[TT3]

My club a few years ago was asked to provide a price guide to a commercial layout, one of the world's largest in fact.

The long time owners were retiring & had had it on the market for a couple of years at least, with little interest. It had got to the stage where they were considering a demolition party for their family and friends....

 

B)

 

Kevin Martin

 

 

Now that would not happen to be a large layout near a famous tourist railway by any chance?

 

I remember going to that shop c1986 to purchase a relco and thinking the actual layout was a bit past it's prime and awfully tatty even then cant imagine what it is like now.

 

Now talking of old layouts I see black springs is still happily getting out and about, although I dont think it ever recovered from the time I ran Triang locos on it!