Cardiff - Portsmouth coach numbers

[SouthernMafia]

Hi all,

 

I have done a fair bit of digging around but still cannot find a complete answer!

I am modelling a Cardiff - Portsmouth Mk1 rake in the late 80s. Obviously Blue Crompton, B/G stock.

 

Formations I'm fine with, I have settled on SK-SO-BSK-CK-SK with an additional BG as required. Whilst the SO might not have been common, it was included in the pack of 4 off ebay so it's in the rake!

What I need help with is coach numbers, particularly the prefix letter. The new packaged Bachmann model comes with coach numbers M25704 (SK), M4439 (SO) M35322 (BSK). The older packaged models of which I have two are E16241 (CK) and E26140 (SK).

I am no number cruncher, but using a bit of common sense I'd say the E stands for Eastern region and M for Midland. I assume this is to do with where the stock is maintained. Further common sense usage (using up my quota here) would suggest that Cardiff-Pompey stock would be Western Region 'W', in general.

 

Refering to this post I found:

http://www.rmweb.co....=539171#p539171

 

...we have a few train formations there, very useful. However no prefix letter at all. Now is this to say that the letter was dropped at some stage, or has the poster just not put the letter, and we are to assume it's W (long shot)

 

The other query linked in with this is stock numbers for SO vehicles, since I have one that needs numbering and unfortunately the list in the post does not contain any SOs!

 

Unfortunately, I was born just before all this ended, hence my complete lack of knowledge on this subject.

Look forward to a few interesting replies..

Cheers

[Guest 47107]

You are correct in your assumption that the coaching stock was usually from the Western region, so would have had a 'W' prefix. I travelled on the service many times in the mid 80's and while coaches from other regions appeared, Western ones were the most common. The letter prefixes were dropped in the late 80's around the time of sectorisation. The attached picture was taken of a Portsmouth bound service at Bath and clearly shows the leading coach to be a Western region MK1 SK. Hope this helps.

[Gwiwer]

There has been a topic around these parts which provided carriage numbers and formations for the route with dated observations. If I find it I'll link to it here for you.

 

By the 80's the perhaps best-remembered vehicle used on that route had departed, namely Gresley buffet W9135E. (W because it was by then maintained by the WR, E at the end denoted a pre-Nat vehicle which was originally allocated to the ER). The formations varied rather and typically included more corridor than open vehicles but one of the latter was certainly W4900 which migrated to Cardiff (Canton) after several years in the Brighton - Exeter rake as S4900. I believe this vehicle - which was one of those repainted green and cream for the West HIghland steam service as simply 4900 still exists on the Bo'ness & Kinneil and is now in maroon livery. It was also one of those included in a "West Highland" coach pack, probably the Lima one though they were never very accurate with coach numbers for general releases.

 

In the 80's you might have found almost any permutation of BSK, CK, two or three SK's and often a BG as well.

[Oldddudders]

There has been a topic around these parts which provided carriage numbers and formations for the route with dated observations. If I find it I'll link to it here for you.

 

By the 80's the perhaps best-remembered vehicle used on that route had departed, namely Gresley buffet W9135E. (W because it was by then maintained by the WR, E at the end denoted a pre-Grouping vehicle which was originally allocated to the ER). The formations varied rather and typically included more corridor than open vehicles but one of the latter was certainly W4900 which migrated to Cardiff (Canton) after several years in the Brighton - Exeter rake as S4900. I believe this vehicle - which was one of those repainted green and cream for the West HIghland steam service as simply 4900 still exists on the Bo'ness & Kinneil and is now in maroon livery. It was also one of those included in a "West Highland" coach pack, probably the Lima one though they were never very accurate with coach numbers for general releases.

 

In the 80's you might have found almost any permutation of BSK, CK, two or three SK's and often a BG as well.

Useful, factual contribution as usual, Rick, but I think the suffixes on BR coaching stock indicated pre-Nationalisation, rather than pre-Grouping origins? Either that - or the Gresleys are older than I thunk!

[Coach bogie]

Eastern BG E80995 in this formation behind 33020 on 19th August 1983

 

Last shot shows a rare Mk 2 brake first, third coach in the set followed by a brake third behind Earl Mountbatten.

 

I'll look out some others. These were the few shots on the system at the moment.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[eastwestdivide]

Wouldn't swear to it, but that third coach looks like a Mk2 to me - not quite so rare.

EDIT: think something changed while I was writing!

How late/early 80s do you want? I've probably got a few notes on formations up to around 84.

[Gwiwer]

I think the suffixes on BR coaching stock indicated pre-Nationalisation, rather than pre-Grouping origins?

Correct Ian, thanks. It's been a hard weekend so far with the loss of a dearly loved pet followed by severe flooding around here. Mind elsewhere - keyboard fingers in neutral

 

And that middle vehicle is a Mk2 brake first but can't tell from here whether it is a BFK or a BFO.

[gc4946]

I lived in Portsmouth until the mid-80s and so far most of the info tallies with what I knew even though I didn't take any photos or make any notes.

When regular LHCS Portsmouth-Bristol services resumed in 1977, they regularly included early Mk2 SOs and BFKs in their formations, though in later years they were exclusively Mk1s.

 

However, on Sundays, Southern Region 8-coach Mk1/Mk2 air-braked and electrically-heated sets, normally based at Clapham Junction, were rostered:

 

3 X SK (or SO) + Mk2 FK (very early type) + BSK or BCK + 3 X SK (or SO)

 

Although I have info on those taken from RCTS' book "British Rail coaching stock 1982" I don't know specific set formations:

 

Coach numbers assume they're air-braked :

SO: 3738/45/8/59, 3843/43/5/8, 4055/74 all on B1 bogies

3749, 3828/9/37/40/6, 3918/9/23/4, 4058/62/6/76, 4376/89/92/3 all on CW bogies

 

Mk2 FK 13388-95/98-401, 403-6

 

BCK: 21265-8, 21271/4/5 all on CW bogies

 

SK: 25909/10/2/3/5-7, 25920 all on B1 bogies

25906/24/34/42 on CW bogies

 

BSK: 34638/41/2 all on B1 bogies

35010/1 on CW bogies

[Gwiwer]

Weekday services were Western Region stock based at Cardiff Canton and which was also used on the Manchester (and Holyhead) services formed into generally 5-coach rakes. Southern sets may have appeared on Sundays as noted; there was the well-known SuO TC+33 working in the early 70's and SR crews were always used between Portsmouth and Salisbury no matter what the motive power.

[SouthernMafia]

Thank you all for your input, massively helpful.

 

How late/early 80s do you want? I've probably got a few notes on formations up to around 84.

 

It would be right up in 88/89 as NSE was starting to come in. If the formations were similar then it would be interesting to have a look.

Also, out of interest, what was the last date the Cardiff-Pompey service ran with LHCS? This will limit my upper time frame.

 

 

I lived in Portsmouth until the mid-80s and so far most of the info tallies with what I knew even though I didn't take any photos or make any notes.

When regular LHCS Portsmouth-Bristol services resumed in 1977, they regularly included early Mk2 SOs and BFKs in their formations, though in later years they were exclusively Mk1s.

 

However, on Sundays, Southern Region 8-coach Mk1/Mk2 air-braked and electrically-heated sets, normally based at Clapham Junction, were rostered:

 

3 X SK (or SO) + Mk2 FK (very early type) + BSK or BCK + 3 X SK (or SO)

 

Although I have info on those taken from RCTS' book "British Rail coaching stock 1982" I don't know specific set formations:

 

Coach numbers assume they're air-braked :

SO: 3738/45/8/59, 3843/43/5/8, 4055/74 all on B1 bogies

3749, 3828/9/37/40/6, 3918/9/23/4, 4058/62/6/76, 4376/89/92/3 all on CW bogies

 

Mk2 FK 13388-95/98-401, 403-6

 

BCK: 21265-8, 21271/4/5 all on CW bogies

 

SK: 25909/10/2/3/5-7, 25920 all on B1 bogies

25906/24/34/42 on CW bogies

 

BSK: 34638/41/2 all on B1 bogies

35010/1 on CW bogies

 

Thanks, I can make up a rake using these. What year were those notes made?

Also you've brought up another question regarding bogies. The SO I have sits on B4s, everything else CW. It sticks out a bit (i.e. doesn't match) so contemplating changing the B4s back to CW, which by your numbers above looks to be ok.

 

Now just to get hold of some numbers!

[SouthernMafia]

Weekday services were Western Region stock based at Cardiff Canton and which was also used on the Manchester (and Holyhead) services formed into generally 5-coach rakes. Southern sets may have appeared on Sundays as noted; there was the well-known SuO TC+33 working in the early 70's and SR crews were always used between Portsmouth and Salisbury no matter what the motive power.

 

Were there any Southern based Mk1 Sets? The TC+33 is a train I'd love to model, I remember being completely phased when I saw the first pic of 'a slammer' at Cardiff!!

 

Also any numbers for some BGs please?

Cheers

[Gwiwer]

The coaching stock gurus may correct me but I don't believe any SR sets were regularly employed on this route - it was always considered a WR service and only had SR input on Sundays (as noted), in the years when 3H units provided some of the Portsmouth - Bristol turns, and when class 33 locos were employed. Those latter were on long and complex rosters which saw them work something like Portsmouth - Cardiff - Manchester and back over a 2 or 3-day cycle between inspections on the SR. They also had odd turns into West Wales and along the north Wales coast at times IIRC from the same rosters.

 

The Sunday service was provided for a few years by 8TC (sometimes only a 4TC was turned out) + 33/1 on a single out-and-back diagram from Portsmouth and which was inter-worked with Portsmouth - Reading services IIRC.

 

Loco haulage ceased at the end of the summer timetable for I think 1989 when the service was taken over by class 156 units, later replaced by class 158.

 

SR Mk1 carriage sets were used more commonly on Waterloo - Weymouth Quay / Southampton Docks boat trains and peak hour London Bridge / Victoria - East Grinstead / Uckfield workings. The stock for the Brighton - Exeter train was found from the WR Waterloo - Exeter allocation after that returned to loco-haulage from Hastings demu operation. Prior to that era it had its own dedicated rake of SR stock berthed in Hove yard overnight.

[gc4946]

Thanks for asking, the coach numbers I've given were taken from BR official sources in 1981/82, and published in the RCTS carriage handbook for 1982.

 

They are for air-braked, electrically-heated SR Mk1s that were allocated to the 8-sets which I remember as late as 1984 working Portsmouth services on Sundays only, together with the WR-based sets, normally five carriages long.

I remember two such sets stabled in Fratton yard one Sunday early in 1984 and jotted down details on a sheet of paper at the time but since threw it away.

 

These 8-sets were based at Clapham Junction and Selhurst during the week.

The Selhurst sets worked London Bridge-East Grinstead/Uckfield weekday peak hours and Brighton-Exeter on Saturdays.

The Clapham Junction sets were normally kept spare working boat trains to Southampton, and extras.

 

Other SR-based Mk1s were kept for early morning newspaper trains until 1986 and they were vacuum braked and electrically heated.

 

As regards Mk1s, from about 1979, when the 31/4s took over from the steam-boiler fitted 31s. many of the WR's carriages used on these services were vacuum braked, electrically heated and ran on B1 bogies, some had Commonwealths and a few ran on B4 types.

[Kris]

Some nice photos of Westbury there Mike.

[P.C.M]

The Mk2 in Mikes pic would have probably been a BFK as the CKs were being withdrawn during the trains last years in service, the BFKs were replacing the lost first class as the trains still keeped the MK1 BSKs.

 

Here are just a couple of my pics,

 

Cheers Peter.

[P.C.M]

Here are a couple more,

 

Cheers Peter.

[eastwestdivide]

After a bit of a rummage,

 

27 April 1984, around Newport (could have been Crewe or Portsmouth services)

33039 + 24854 7214 35482 18572 18928

33064 + 34667 4827 18970 7081

33014 + 80813 35475 7905 18379 18882

 

3 Aug 1982,

Portsmouth-Southampton with

33109 + 15925 81603 25412 25935 5141*

+ Mk2?

Southampton:

33040 + 16076 4941 5081 25970 81288

 

7 Aug 1982

Southampton

'89' 33010 + E15833 M80763 W25248 W25595 W25409 W26079

looks like I recorded the prefix as the exception to the rule

'89' 33032 + 25959 13085 25707 25622 81361 25631

 

and 7 Aug 1982 again, a Saturday oddity, we travelled from Southampton to Salisbury *via Eastleigh*, might have been a Weymouth to somewhere? Anyone know?

33008 + W35050 5109 13302 35053 25616 16141 16076 4941 5081 25970 81288

look like some Mk2s on there too.

 

8 Aug 1982, Salisbury

33003 + 15853 80763 25248 25595 25409 26079

 

12 Nov 1982, Cardiff

'89' 33001 + 25601 25968 80635 16174 25591 86962*

* yes, a GUV, as well as a BG in the middle

33019 + 25965 16219 35206 25794 25963

33030 + 35071 25936 16225 24018 24835

33002 + 24434 16208 35311 16217 25417

33010 + 13301 25595 25589 35200 25784

 

I didn't normally record prefixes unless there was a good reason so they're probably mostly W-, but a cross-ref to the relevant coaching stock books of the time might help.

 

Next question: did the Crewe services interwork coaching stock with the Portsmouth ones, as well as the locos being on extended trips from home?

[br2975]

Here's a handful of my sightings, all at Cardiff.

 

HTH

 

Brian R

 

19/08/87 Weds. 14:10 Pompey - Cardiff

33027 + 18835+24835+17101+35480

 

11/04/87 Sat. ??:?? Cardiff - Pompey

33053 + 18723+18609+35204+17019+18409

 

18/06/87 Thur. ??:?? Cardiff - Pompey

33064 + 18929+17019+35480+18413+18615

 

21/08/87 Fri. Cardiff - Crewe

37430 + 18923+18712+18721+17052+18250+18963

 

22/08/87 Sat. 05:50 Cardiff - Pompey

33065 + 18929+18927+17041+35482+18716

 

01/09/87 Tue. ??:?? Pompey - Cardiff

47446 + 35321+17047+24585+18820+18625

 

08/03/88 Tue.

47436 + 18735+18812+18956+18971+84197

(18971 carried the NSE flash and brand).

 

21/04/88 13:05 Cardiff - Pompey

33023 + 18625+18961+17047+35203+18835

 

01/09/87 Tue. ??:?? Cardiff - Pompey

33011 + 18782+18599+34671+17060+18951

 

01/09/87 Tue ??:?? Crewe - Swansea

37431 + 18929+18927+17041+35482+18716

Same set as 22/08/87 05:50 to Pompey

[eastwestdivide]

I see some of the coaches were the same over that period, e.g. your 18963 in 1987 was the renumbered version of my 25963 in 1982.

[yellowvanman]

Hi Rich ,heres another ...nice to see you at Southampton show with eldavo and cramdin yard ..very good..

[Natalie]

I have the carriage working notice for the South Western Division for Summer 1985 if the info is of interest. Bear in mind that the LN Cardiff-Portsmouth service ceased with the introduction of the May 1988 timetable when they were replaced by class 155 SuperSprinters.

[Natalie]

Just noticed the question about Cardiff-Crewe sets interworking. I don't have a WR CWN for 1985 but do have a complete set of SR divisions and the WR one for 1981- that might be of interest? I also have the loco diagrams for the SR SWD for Summer 1981 and 1983 which show quite a lot of interworking of the class 33s.

 

I would recommend joining Robert Carroll's excellent BRCoaching Stock yahoo group where the files contain all manner of carriage working notices.

 

Let me know if I can assist further.

[SouthernMafia]

Fantastic shots there, all very different now. Here's Bevois Park in 2008 with 'the mound'.

 

http://www.headcode92.co.uk/main.php?g2_itemId=4225

 

 

Thanks all for the carriage number info. Didn't think the loco hauled service went in May 88, modellers licence may be required!

[Natalie]

To put some meat on the bones from Summer 1985:

 

On Monday- Friday:

 

all the Portsmouth services are formed of a WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK)

 

2 sets were stabled overnight at Fratton:

1O93 1810 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 2201- worked 2V58 0656 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM (Sats works 2V56)

2O95 2020 Bristol TM- Ports Hbr a 2319- worked 2V56 0550 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM (Sats works 2V58)

 

Also a WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK) was:

1O85 1610 Bristol TM- Brighton a 1924 worked next day's 1V22 0830 Brighton- Cardiff a 1245

 

AB/EH SR 8-Set K (3 SK,2 BCK,3 SK) were used on:

1V12 1114 FO Brighton- Penzance a 1850 (works 1086 1050 to Brighton next day)

 

On Saturday:

Most services formed of WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK) except:

1V22 0830 Brighton- Cardiff a 1245

1O83 1400 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 1752

1V31 1810 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM a 2041

The above set was an SR 8-Set H (airbraked and ETH)and had spent the week working East Grinstead line services

 

1085 1610 Bristol TM- Brighton was formed of a WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK). (It returned next day (Sun) on 1V34 1617 Brighton- Bristol)

 

AB/EH SR 8-Set K (3 SK,2 BCK,3 SK) were used on:

1O86 1050 Penzance- Brighton a 1813 (works 1V25 1017 SUN Brighton- Cardiff)

 

AB/EH SR 8-set J (4 TSO,BSK,FK(Mk2a),2 TSO) 1000v ETH used on:

1V10 0914 Brighton- Penzance a 1648 (returns on 1O22 1410 SUN Penz- Waterloo). The set had been used during Friday between Waterloo and Exeter St Davids and worked to Brighton ECS from Clapham.

 

The following were a WR VB/DH set (SK,BSK,CK,3 SK,CK,BSK,SK):

1067 0805 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 1145

1V26 1210 Ports Hbr- Cardiff a 1533

 

Again two WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK) were stabled overnight at Fratton:

1O91 1710 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 2050- worked 1V37 1915 SUN Ports Hbr- Cardiff a 2248

2O95 1940 Weston Super Mare- Ports Hbr a 2317- worked 1V21 0915 SUN Ports Hbr- Cardiff a 1256

 

Sundays:

The SR 8 Set H(3 TSO,BSK,FK (Mk2a),3 TSO) (EH/AB) 750v ETH was still out and about:

1O67 0755 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 1140

1V27 1315 Ports Hbr- Cardiff a 1655

1O93 1750 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 2141

5P14 2214 Ports Hbr- Clapham Yard a 2349

This set then stabled at Clapham Yard for a week before working 5Y48 0032 SUN ECS to New Cross Gate ready to spend the week on London Bridge- East Grinstead line workings.

However between 6th July and 7th Sept inc it worked 1V08 0837 SO Waterloo- Exeter St Davids, returning on 1O14 1220 Exeter St Davids- Waterloo before retiring back to Clapham Yard then working 5Y48 to New Cross Gate the next morning.

 

All other Portsmouth-Bristol/Cardiff trains on a Sunday were formed of WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK). Two sets stabled overnight at Fratton:

1O97 1945 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 2325- worked Monday's 2V58 0656 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM

1099 2145 Bristol TM- Ports & Sthsea a 0024- worked Monday's 2V56 0550 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM

 

AB/EH SR 8-Set K (3 SK,2 BCK,3 SK) were used on:

1V25 1017 Brighton- Cardiff a 1507

1O76 1705 Cardiff- Brighton a 2139

5Y24 2155 Brighton- Clapham Yard ECS a 2330

The set was stabled at Clapham Yard over the week before returning early next Friday morning to Brighton for 1V12 1114 FO Brighton-Penzance.

 

WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK)

1V34 1617 Brighton- Bristol TM a 1958

 

As can be seen (hopefully) there was a mixture of stock utilised on the Portsmouth services- including SR air braked stock at the weekends. They also seem to be closely integrated with Brighton-West of England services. Also be aware that booked formations were not always adhered to- especially the WR 5-Sets.

 

I hope the above is of some interest and heps to unravels some of the workings.

[Trains4U]

The odd thing for me is that I seem to recall during 87 and 88 that the Cardiff-Portsmouth sets were made up of 2x Mk1 SK, Mk2 BFK then another 2 Mk1 SKs.

Perhaps I just wasn't paying that much attention, though I did bash them quite a bit during that time (Though to be fair I was 9 or 10 at the time...)

 

I used to live in Fratton, and would spend many a Saturday or school holiday bashing the triangle between Portmouth, Eastleigh and Southampton on thumpers and Cardiff trains. (Before the rubbish electrification ;-) )