Cardiff - Portsmouth coach numbers

[Gwiwer]

Very full and complete details there thanks Natalie.

 

A question though. The Brighton - Penzance workings surely included a buffet car? The dedicated set(which was based at Hove) did. Or was this only a trolley service by then? When a WR (Waterloo - Exeter)Mk2 set was used in later years these included a TSOT.

 

Your mention of the 08.37 (SSO) Waterloo - Exeter reminds me that this was a summer relief train and at one stage stopped only at Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Yeovil Junction, Axminster, Honiton and Exeter (both). As such it was quite a fast and attractive train and was for some years diagrammed 2x33/1+8TC (4TC was used on occasions resulting in severe overcrowding). That formation also resulted in a bit of attention from the haulage fraternity!

 

The day it arrived at St. Davids with 33/1+33/0 leading foxed them; the WR sent it back in shove mode most weeks but this didn't work with the 33/0 coupled to the TC!

[Natalie]

Hi Gareth,

No your memory isn't playing tricks with you. According to the Summer 1986 Appendix to Carriage Working Notice the WR 5-Sets were booked to formed almost as you describe- SK,2x BSK,CK,SK (all Mk1) worked by diagrams CF150-158,170,179. Certainly photos of the time show there was variation in what Cardiff Canton actually sent out in the sets. Mk2a BFK being common for instance.

 

Rick your mention of a buffet car on the Brighton-Penzance workings has caused me to take a look in the May 1988 CWN. The workings have been cut back from Penzance to Plymouth. I have extracted the workings below:

 

LA245 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

1O98 0550 SO Exeter St. Davids- Hove a 1010

5V12 1035 SO ECS Hove- Brighton a 1038

1V00 1105 SO Brighton- Plymouth a

5O05 xxxx SO Plymouth- Exeter St. Davids a

2O05 2030 SO Exeter St. Davids- Basingstoke a 2310

5B67 2335 SO ECS Basingstoke- Eastleigh Depot a 0020

LA249 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

1O86 0933 SO Plymouth- Brighton a 1520

5O86 1555 SO ECS Brighton- Lovers Walk CS a 1615

works circuit LA252 next day

 

LA252 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

5V18 1632 SUN ECS Lovers Walk CS- Brighton a 1647

1V18 1710 SUN Brighton- Plymouth

LA248 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

5T03 0541 SX ECS Eastleigh Depot- Salisbury a 0643

2L20 0704 SX Salisbury- Waterloo a 0843

1P15 0922 SX Waterloo- Ports Hbr a 1046

5P15 1105 SX ECS Ports Hbr- Fratton CS a 1115

5V12 1135 SX ECS Fratton CS- Ports Hbr a 1146

1V12 1159 SX Ports Hbr- Plymouth a

LA249 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

1O28 0940 SX Plymouth- Ports Hbr a 1428

5028 1445 SX ECS Ports Hbr- Fratton CS a 1455

5P40 1508 SX ECS Fratton CS- Ports Hbr a 1518

1P40 1530 SX Ports Hbr- Waterloo a 1658

1L13 1734 SX Waterloo- Salisbury a 1916

5T31 2050 SX ECS Salisbury- Eastleigh Depot a 2139

 

Essentially by this time the Brighton-Plymouth service was worked by WR sets used usually on Waterloo- West of England services. Sets were operated on circuits which were generally on weekly cycles- the change usually occuring over the weekend. Sets were often worked to Plymouth as passenger trains as a means of getting the sets to/from Laira CS. The workings above are part of more involved circuit workings and involve in addition to the Waterloo- WoE workings some short workings along that route on local passenger services as well as Eastleigh Depot having a large input each night into the servicing of the sets.

 

I hope the above has been of some interest and helps to show the way coaching sets are worked around cyclical diagrams to cover the services required.

[Gwiwer]

5O86 1555 SO ECS Brighton- Lovers Walk CS a 1615

5V18 1632 SUN ECS Lovers Walk CS- Brighton a 1647

 

For the record topped and tailed by 47/7 (train engine) and 73/1 and worked via Hove (reversible loop platform) and Preston Park (up loop platform) since it is impossible to access Lovers Walk from platforms 1 or 2 at Brighton station. Through WR services normally used platform 2 due to their length though could use platform 1 in emergency.

[Natalie]

Spot on- I omitted the 'via' as I would otherwise write pages of the stuff! Just goes to show that if you scratched the surface the Southern Region was far more than 'just a multiple unit' with many interesting workings abounding- such as the parcels/news/vans trains that would often carry a BSK or a 3-Set L for passenger accommodation going to such places as Eastbourne. Maybe I should start a new topic with these if people are interested enough?

[Oldddudders]

Spot on- I omitted the 'via' as I would otherwise write pages of the stuff! Just goes to show that if you scratched the surface the Southern Region was far more than 'just a multiple unit' with many interesting workings abounding- such as the parcels/news/vans trains that would often carry a BSK or a 3-Set L for passenger accommodation going to such places as Eastbourne. Maybe I should start a new topic with these if people are interested enough?

Yes, please ma'am! The paper trains were the bane of the engineer's life, but had a very high priority and were the most closely monitored of services, with every minute lost to be accounted for. They, the loco-hauled passenger services and the van workings were much more interesting, as you say, than the back-and-forth of the EMUs.

[eastwestdivide]

Seconded. Anything on Redhill-Tonbridge would be interesting, as I remember a 33-hauled passenger turn there late 70s. Also the morning parcels that came up from Dover via Chatham, conveying some sort of continental vans as well as normal BR parcels stock - also late 70s.

[Natalie]

Okies - leave it to me! Ian any specific location you are interested in?

[gc4946]

Thanks all for posting carriage rosters, especially the SR 8-set workings, I forgot New Cross Gate was then a stabling point for them; my memory wasn't playing tricks!

 

Having lived in Portsmouth, out of curiosity what were the Waterloo-Portsmouth newspaper workings? AFAIK they came down to the coast early am, don't know its routing, after the papers were unloaded, the carriages were shunted to Fratton yard by an 08 or 09 and returned to Clapham Junction direct from the sidings ECS during the daytime to repeat the cycle the following night.

Also each weekday evening about 1915 I remember a two-coach parcels/newspaper train either 33 or 73-hauled going through Fratton presumably to Southampton or Eastleigh? Again I don't have any idea how that fitted into the scheme of things.

[brushman47544]

Seconded. Anything on Redhill-Tonbridge would be interesting, as I remember a 33-hauled passenger turn there late 70s. Also the morning parcels that came up from Dover via Chatham, conveying some sort of continental vans as well as normal BR parcels stock - also late 70s.

I can't remember when they finished officially, but Class 33 + 3xMk1s were rostered on a number of Redhill-Reading and Redhill-Tonbridge peak hour workings to supplement the six tadpole (3R) units. Eventually they were replaced by displaced 3H units, before WR DMUs took over.

[balders]

Just managed to dig out some haulage notes from 1985 if they are any use??

 

06/08/85

 

33050 1V22 08.30 Brighton - Cardiff 18938, 18956, 13335, 35480, 13342

 

33003 1O75 12.05 Cardiff - Portsmouth 35120, 18713, 18930, 7650, 18561

 

33019 1V25 11.10 Portsmouth - Bristol 18744, 18611, 7075, 18709, 84347

 

33033 1O81 14.10 Bristol - Portsmouth same stock as above

 

33017 1V27 13.10 Portsmouth - Bristol 18929, 7067, 35051, 18977, 18295

 

33108 1O85 16.10 Bristol - Brighton same stock as above.

 

12/09/85

 

33010 1O67 08.05 Cardiff - Portsmouth 18283, 18580, 18592, 34575, 7220

 

33032 2V58 06.56 Portsmouth - Bristol 18960, 35195, 18718, 35201, 7921

 

33031 1O69 10.10 Bristol - Portsmouth stock as above

 

33118 1V22 08.50 Brighton - Cardiff 34521, 18796, 7230, 18787, 18962

 

33038 1O79 12.05 Cardiff - Portsmouth 18929, 7067, 35051, 18977, 18295

 

33015 1V25 11.10 Portsmouth - Cardiff 18964, 34525, 7652, 35185, 18789

 

33016 1O81 14.05 Bristol - Portsmouth same stock as above

 

33034 1V27 13.10 Portsmouth - Bristol same stock as 2V58 above

 

33118 1O85 16.10 Bristol - Brighton same stock as 1V27

 

33039 2O60 16.18 Bristol - Portsmouth 5039, 35322, 7669, 35180, 18970

 

33044 1V30 15.10 Portsmouth - Weston SM 18938, 13328, 7216, 17068, 18624

 

33031 1O87 16.11 Cardiff - Portsmouth same stock as 1O67 above

 

33038 1V34 17.10 Portsmouth - Bristol same stock as 1O81 above.

 

A fairly extensive day of Crompton haulage! Hopfully with some info you can use. There's more from 24/9/85 if you want it!

 

Regards

 

 

Guy

 

 

 

 

 

[Oldddudders]

Okies - leave it to me! Ian any specific location you are interested in?

I am basically a Central and South Eastern person, having been a Controller on the former, and Operating Assistant on the latter. So the 1135 Chi-B Arms, 2200 Guide Bridge-Redhill, 0639 Blisworth-Redhill, 0106 Channelsea-B Arms, 2000 Clapham Junction-B Arms, 0320 Vic - Brighton, 0327 Vic- Eastbourne, 0300 Vic-Ramsgate, 0340 Vic-Dover, 1855 Dover-London Bridge and, and, and....

 

Then there's the South Western, where I never really worked, but am now modelling a North Devon junction, so the 0115 Waterloo-Padstow papers becomes terribly interesting, too - if your data goes back that far!

 

All contributions will be gratefully received here!

[Gwiwer]

01.15 Waterloo - Padstow remained in the timetable for a good many years after the Withered Arm closed. IIRC it became the 01.40 to Yeovil Junction.

[Shed]

Interesting reading

[Shed]

Just had another read through this thread.

What is available in oo rtr to make up any of these trains?

Cheers

[Flood]

Just had another read through this thread.

What is available in oo rtr to make up any of these trains?

Cheers

For the Bristol/Cardiff - Portsmouth trains I would say everything.

 

Mk 1 SK, BSK, CK, FK, TSO and Mk2a BFK all from Bachmann (18xxx, 34xxx/35xxx, 7xxx, 13xxx, 5xxx and 17xxx).

 

The Brighton - Plymouth and Waterloo - Portsmouth Hbr - Plymouth had Mk2a and Mk2b TSO stock, a Mk2c TSOT and Mk2a BFK stock. Sadly the Mk2a TSO and Mk2a BFK stock are the only ones available, both from Bachmann (or Hornby as very old models).

[bigP]

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Edited January 31, 2021 by bigP
Deleted

[griffgriff]

You could probably knock up some 2B/C stock pretty affordably.

 

 

• Take a recent Hornby 2E (for example). Coach will be correct length (2B-F were longer than 2z/A), windows in correct positions.
• Open up passenger window apertures.  Would need to make the door windows a bit deeper on the TSOs as well to be fair.
• Use glazing from a recent Hornby Railroad mk1 (such as)
• Detail to suit particulars as required.

 

Bob's your Mothers' brother - you've got a 2B/C.

 

 

Cheers,

Paul

Only mk1 and mk2 windows/vents are different. Shawplan etched window frames are a better bet.

 

Griff

[bigP]

--

Edited January 31, 2021 by bigP
Deleted

[Gwiwer]

Don’t forget the Mk1 RMB which used to be included in Cardiff - Pompey rakes. Nor the fact that Gresley buffet W9135E was a regular performer for a few years too. Both types have been available and can probably be found though the Gresley might be pricey.

 

The Brighton - Plymouth was a Mk1 8-set for several years which included an RU if I remember correctly. That rake ended up all b/g but for a year or two was a mix of green, maroon and b/g stock with a green or blue 33 in charge. Go back a few more years and it was a 6-set which had a 2-set added at Fareham from Portsmouth. And on summer Saturdays it was 11 through from Brighton behind two 33s using the regular 8-set coulled to an Oxted line 3-set. Brighton - Oxted workings were all units at weekends which freed the loco-hauled stock to go west.

[Flood]

You could probably knock up some 2B/C stock pretty affordably.

 

• Take a recent Hornby 2E (for example). Coach will be correct length (2B-F were longer than 2z/A), windows in correct positions.
• Open up passenger window apertures.  Would need to make the door windows a bit deeper on the TSOs as well to be fair.
• Use glazing from a recent Hornby Railroad mk1 (such as)
• Detail to suit particulars as required.

 

Bob's your Mothers' brother - you've got a 2B/C.

 

 

Cheers,

Paul

The toilet windows are in different positions on a Mk2E, and Airfix/Mainline/Dapol/Hornby Mk2D could be used with Shawplan etches (one day I will finish mine .

[Shed]

For the Bristol/Cardiff - Portsmouth trains I would say everything.

 

Mk 1 SK, BSK, CK, FK, TSO and Mk2a BFK all from Bachmann (18xxx, 34xxx/35xxx, 7xxx, 13xxx, 5xxx and 17xxx).

 

 

Are Hornby any good

Or Bachmann just better?

[Gwiwer]

Hornby are competent but beware those released as Railroad items as they have plastic wheels which should be changed for metal ones.  Bachmann are the better ones though there isn't always a lot to pick between them and neither brand issues a complete range of vehicle types or liveries.  Until recently the roof ribs on Bachmann Mk1s were a cause for concern to the detailed modeller but they are much less prominent on the most recent issues.  

[KeithHC]

I can't remember when they finished officially, but Class 33 + 3xMk1s were rostered on a number of Redhill-Reading and Redhill-Tonbridge peak hour workings to supplement the six tadpole (3R) units. Eventually they were replaced by displaced 3H units, before WR DMUs took over.

 I think there where about 4 sets available and I think numbered 12 to 16 consisting of SK-BSK-SK. They where used for peak time services. One such being from Redhill to Godstone South where the 33 runround and operated in effect a schools service back to Redhill. The services to Reading also included at times a GUV to cope with the mail. The 3R tadpole units had part of the former EPB Driving trailer converted to be used again for mail.

 

Keith

[Gwiwer]

A typical SR 3-set would be CK-BSK-TSO but I recall those used on the Reading - Redhill route were often formed with two BSKs. Not just to convey then then significant amount of mail along that route but it wasxa second-class only service meaning there was no need for the CK.

 

When 3H or 3D units replaced 3R “Tadpole” sets the guard often locked the first class compartments out of use.

[eastwestdivide]

To save going a bit of-topic, there's more on loco hauled via Redhill over here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65529-crompton-hauled-redhill-reading-services/

 

where I wrote:

6 April 1978, hauled by 33050 from Redhill-Tonbridge, in coach S4392 (SO/TSO). The formation was 4066, 4392, 34638, so no first class then.