Class 86

[brushman47544]

By the way any recommendations re DCC, will it be too mch for a Bachmann chip?

cheers

mark

I have fitted standard Bachmann 36-553 decoders to all my Heljan diesels and as others have said they have been fine, with no need to change CV 54 or 55 (to adjust back EMF). Don't have an 86, though.

 

Anyway, more to the point. A set of etched windscreens cannot fix the overly raked back cab windscreens (Hence nothing similar being ever produced for the Bachy 25), or the profile of the cab roof. They would however increase the size of the windscreens, which are probably the models biggest blow.

 

Please compare Trains4U's photo's to for example to this photo of a Class 86 in profile.

 

A set of etched side grilles are no easy fix to the dimensional error of the existing grilles being too tall for the inset panel. As highlighted in Trains4U's photo's.

 

Personally, I think the old margate model captures the look the look of a real 86, if a rather dated moulding with cut outs for body retaining clips and the hole in the roof for the switch etc.

 

Regards

 

Matt

Both the Heljan and Hornby 86s have issues already mentioned here, but I agree the photos (thanks Gareth) show that the Hornby model has stood the test of time very well.

[CullingworthGNR]

The main thing restricting me from buying it is a lack of finances - having recently forked out a small fortune for her.. I mean our new kitchen, I don't have the funds to justify it!

 

I think in all fairness, if you were really looking forward to it and were going to buy 10 of them (as in Jim's case) I think you've every right to be disappointed if it doesn't look quite right to you. On the other hand, train set modellers like me who like the look of it might be more than happy with the Heljan model - the motor is good enough for short distance trips around the depot, and the detail and accuracy is superior to the Hornby model (if you don't have the knowledge or skill to do loads of work on it).

 

It's also correct that Heljan did work on the 33/27/26 family and get them very good - who knows what the Danes are planning. The problem comes if the 86 doesn't sell in the first place, and then they blame poor sales on a lack of demand rather than the 'inferior' product.

[jonathan452]

On the other hand, train set modellers like me who like the look of it might be more than happy with the Heljan model - the motor is good enough for short distance trips around the depot, and the detail and accuracy is superior to the Hornby model (if you don't have the knowledge or skill to do loads of work on it).

 

I second the above.

 

Unfortunately the Freightliner version I bought at Ally Pally on Saturday afternoon had one of the buffer beams detached. That was a relatively easy clip fit job to re-attach.

 

However three of the four red and yellow brake(?) pipes were also detached (from the buffer beam), two at one end, one at the other. As a train set modeller myself with (so far) limited skills can someone please advise how easy these are to re-attach.

 

Time did not allow me closer inspection during the weekend as I was assisting the MRC with stewarding and clearing up at Ally Pally on the Sunday night.

[Nile_Griffith]

Picked my two up today from the fabulous Modellers Mecca. One in Virgin Livery and the other in Intercity Swallow. Unfortunately on removal from the box. The pantograph and one of the front handrails decided that they preferred life away from the model and stayed resolutely in the bottom of the box. Also with the I.C. model I have to say that the bottom white paint job was thinly applied and not great coverage. So it's back to the shop tomorrow.

 

The Virgin loco needed a little TLC to the roof top aerials as they where bent back. What has disappointed me a little is that the cab front jumper cables are printed on, but that said over all it's a very welcome addition to my project and so much more satisfying than Hornby's toy offering.

[Nile_Griffith]

A bit back to front I know but I posted the above comment without really going through all the other previous postings and I have to say the various responses have made for considerable thinking.

 

To state my own position within the hobby. I count myself as an enthusiastic modeler. I have aspirations and levels for which I would like to reach and much of the enjoyment comes from developing skills and trying out new ideas usually gleened from sites such as this. My interest in railways is based on no more experience than your average commuter, although I do have a small fascination for TPO's, stemming from quite a few cold nights waiting for a train home from Birmingham New Street. Ironically in real world terms I find modern'ish diesel locomotives pretty boring and uninspiring, even though my modeling interest is based firmly between 1987 and 1997'ish (big emphasis on the 'ish). Real world Steam trains stop me dead in my tracks with awe and total regard. Though the thought of building a layout set in the 30's leaves me cold. I don't have a collection of memories where my experience of real world locomotives has been gained by being up close and personal with them, either professionally or other. Or the more traditional one of weekends and school holidays spent hanging around platform ends or engine sheds building my knowledge and intellectually sparring with other loco aficionado's.

 

And in this. I do not think that I am all that dissimilar to a good percentage of model railway consumers. Along with a good percentage of consumers who, when all said and done. Take part in the hobby as a light hearted pastime, that is just a personal indulgence, a little departure from the day to day. Hobbyists whose main demand of the manufacturers within their scope. Is that they produce a diverse range of loco's and rolling stock, which fulfill some key criteria. That visually, they inspire the collector and have that certain "smile" factor to them. That smile factor being coupled with the products durability, reliability and fitness of purpose. Finally that all this should be matched with an acceptable price point.

 

I have a great deal of admiration for the upper echelons of modelers on this site. Their work is truly inspirational and has provided a lot of us with the necessary motivation to move our own modeling up a gear. But without sounding harsh or disparaging. Just what percentage of the buying market do these "Uber" modelers make?

 

I totally agree with all those comments that say that the manufacturers should make all efforts to ensure that their models maximize the technology available to them in the hope of providing as close a correct scale representation as possible. But this maximizing has to be done within the economic boundaries bounding the manufacturer. Heljan as fas as I can remember is not a registered charity. They are a profit making concern and I for one hope they continue to do so! As making a profit means that they can continue to manufacture. I am pretty sure that Mr Heljan should the muse ever take him. Could continue to keep batting backwards and forwards various moldings and samples until the cows come in. He might well be in a position to turf out his current viable and economically sound CAD/CAM systems and upgrade to aviation industry specification kit. I daresay it wouldn't be too difficult either, for him to set up a working party made up of some of the more knowledgeable minds from this site. Put them up in one of Copenhagen's finer hotels and let them scrutinize plans and tooling's and moldings until all are suitably chuffed witless! The depressing truth is however. That manufacturing has constant cost, recourses are indeed finite. Only a defined amount of time can be devoted to product development and design. Too much time spent at the drawing board and samples table can mean that such investment may never be realised let alone recovered from the predicted/eventual quantity sold at a price for which the customer will stand.

 

I think Heljan should at least be applauded for producing what is in the most part, a very tidy out of the box model of a much needed class.Yes I would agree that there are some weak areas with the finished product. But would somebody like to point me in the direction of any manufactured product that is 100% the kiddy! Unlike a good number of hobbies pastimes or interests. OO guage products in general occupy a single price tier, with the main manufacturers pitching at similar price bands for their output, leaving smaller more bespoke makers providing much higher priced specific items. Maybe if Heljan where offering the 86 in say three different price brackets, then those buying at the top end may have a some right to say "Oi whats going on here?"

 

Instead we seem to have a relatively small percentage of the buying market, roasting a well intentioned manufacturer over the righteous fires of adenoidal rage. I get the impression that there are some who are letting the disappointment of their high hopes, detract from what is a worthwhile model. Yes by all means lets find some kind of forum to let the makers know when we think somethings gone amiss, but lets not to do it in such a way that gives them reason to think that the results of their efforts aren't worth while and more importantly give them grounds to think developing new products is not a wise investment of their time and ultimately their cash.

 

A lot has been said about Heljans Tubby Duff's. But it was a Tubby Duff put in comparison with a Margate Duff, that made me realise that there where model loco's of a good quality out there. That the hobby was a worthwhile and rewarding one to pursue at level beyond the train set.

 

I for one am rather chuffed with my Danish 86's and while there are those who maybe considering buying the cheaper Hornby model. I for one shall be enjoying mine while they write the parts list out, fill the holes, add the etchings, codge together a decent chassis and drive train. Paint the body and when they have finally finished and are indeed enjoying a good job well done.......... I'll still be enjoying my Heljan 86's too

[Guest jim s-w]

 

I for one am rather chuffed with my Danish 86's and while there are those who maybe considering buying the cheaper Hornby model. I for one shall be enjoying mine while they write the parts list out, fill the holes, add the etchings, codge together a decent chassis and drive train. Paint the body and when they have finally finished and are indeed enjoying a good job well done.......... I'll still be enjoying my Heljan 86's too

 

And that is ultimately what makes the hobby so good isn't it?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Southernman46]

The following comment comes directly from the web-site of a well-known "O" gauge retailer located in a seaside town in Lancashire and sums things up very well I think...

 

 

A REALITY CHECK ON CUSTOMER EXPECTATIONS

 

We offer a wide range of kits and ready-to-run items from a number of sources. our aim is to offer a quality product at an affordable price. This seems to satisfy 99% of our customers. However, there appears to be a growing number of people in the model railway fraternity who expect perfection for a pitance of a price. Let me make it clear that the perfect model does not exist. It is utterly unreasonable to expect full working inside motion on any of the models we sell or any other complex working details that can barely be seen, especially at the price and no, the cab gauges don't really work! All our items are for standard 'O' gauge finescale. They are made from plastic, resin, white metal, pewter and brass. They are powered by electric motors. Real locomotives are made from iron, steel, brass and copper. they are powered by steam, diesel or elctricity. If anyone wants to duplicate all the features of a real locomotive may I suggest he buys a real one. They are much bigger than ours and cost many times more than the ones we sell. At the end of the day model railways are big boys toys and meant to be fun, let's not forget it.

[Guest jim s-w]

I dont think anyone is asking for perfection but are you saying that getting the basic shape right is too much to ask for on a £100+ loco?

 

Yes we perhaps shouldn't have too high expectations but what about too low expectations?

 

What are you saying? We should accept any old rubbish the manufacturers deem to throw at us and be grateful?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[298]

Maybe OHLE modellers are a different breed, if you spend alot more of your modelling time scratchbuilding structures to standards higher than commercial offerings whilst putting up with the inherent difficulties of working on the rest of the layout with something so delicate in the way, you'd naturally expect the first release to modern standards to be as good as it's diesel counterparts.

[deltic56]

The following comment comes directly from the web-site of a well-known "O" gauge retailer located in a seaside town in Lancashire and sums things up very well I think...

 

 

A REALITY CHECK ON CUSTOMER EXPECTATIONS

 

We offer a wide range of kits and ready-to-run items from a number of sources. our aim is to offer a quality product at an affordable price. This seems to satisfy 99% of our customers. However, there appears to be a growing number of people in the model railway fraternity who expect perfection for a pitance of a price. Let me make it clear that the perfect model does not exist. It is utterly unreasonable to expect full working inside motion on any of the models we sell or any other complex working details that can barely be seen, especially at the price and no, the cab gauges don't really work! All our items are for standard 'O' gauge finescale. They are made from plastic, resin, white metal, pewter and brass. They are powered by electric motors. Real locomotives are made from iron, steel, brass and copper. they are powered by steam, diesel or elctricity. If anyone wants to duplicate all the features of a real locomotive may I suggest he buys a real one. They are much bigger than ours and cost many times more than the ones we sell. At the end of the day model railways are big boys toys and meant to be fun, let's not forget it.

 

 

Well said-- a perfect reply to all the armchair modellers who do appear to want absolute 101% perfection for next to nothing. No model is ever perfect - if you were to scale up any model it would look wrong also when you scale down a model it can look wrong. The classis example in the diecast field is the E type Jaguar.The curves are a devil to get right. Colour also looks different on diffent size objects.

[298]

Well said-- a perfect reply to all the armchair modellers who do appear to want absolute 101% perfection for next to nothing. No model is ever perfect - if you were to scale up any model it would look wrong also when you scale down a model it can look wrong. The classis example in the diecast field is the E type Jaguar.The curves are a devil to get right. Colour also looks different on diffent size objects.

 

It would probably be easier to correct the curve issues on a model E-type bonnet, than fundamental shape ones on the Heljan 86 (and my Dad used to make replica E-type bonnets, and said two were never exactly the same).

 

To me, modelling wouldn't be modelling without a bit of "gilding the lily", and although I could put up with the moulded on TDM cables or some livery inaccuracies, if the basic shape is wrong and fundamental errors have been made that ruin the look of the model. It wouldn't have taken alot more effort to get things right and i'm sure these mistakes will cost them sales, and I won't be emotionally blackmailed into buying one just in case it's a poor seller and a wrongful indication the hobby doesn't want AC electrics to a high standard.

 

Manufacturers set the standards we now expect, which unfortunately in this case involves a company that has a bit of a reputation for uncorrectable design errors. One saving grace is their first UK offering has since been covered by another two manufacturers , and I think it'll only be a matter of time before this loco is eclipsed. Exactly how long is another matter, but i'm prepared to wait.

[Lokomotivfuhrer]

I notice there have been a few postings regarding other Liveries, the BR Blue version &c.

 

I spoke to the Heljan Rep. from their HQ in Denmark, at their stand at the Model Rail Scotland Exhibition, about this, and asked him specifically about the BR Blue version, given it's lifespan of around 30 years from the Late 1960s to mid-1990s.

 

His answer regarding the BR Blue version. straight from the Great Dane's mouth:-

The BR Blue version would require a complete re-tooling, at an estimated cost of £0.5M (ok it may have been Euros), and that investment depended on how sales went with the current batch of liveries.

[brushman47544]

I notice there have been a few postings regarding other Liveries, the BR Blue version &c.

 

I spoke to the Heljan Rep. from their HQ in Denmark, at their stand at the Model Rail Scotland Exhibition, about this, and asked him specifically about the BR Blue version, given it's lifespan of around 30 years from the Late 1960s to mid-1990s.

 

His answer regarding the BR Blue version. straight from the Great Dane's mouth:-

The BR Blue version would require a complete re-tooling, at an estimated cost of £0.5M (ok it may have been Euros), and that investment depended on how sales went with the current batch of liveries.

Good to know, thanks, even if it does mean we might have to wait a while, if we get a BR Blue version at all. Other RTR manufacturers seem adept now at designing their tooling to allow for different variants to be produced without requiring a complete re-tool. It's a shame Heljan doesn't seem to do the same.

[craigwelsh]

Not sure about getting them to buy the latest aviation CAD package (Catia is very nice though..), its more a case of taking an accurate ruler along to the measuring session..

 

The Heljan Hymek as well as the DP1 I mentioned earlier was pretty spot on in terms of shape imho and that didn't cost the hundreds people seem to think it should!

 

Having spent some time under a few wagons now it is a bit tricky but Heljan seem to be on a run of not doing it particularly well apart from moments of clarity. The class 15 is great in the recent releases but others haven't been great.

 

I'm certainly got going to get grumpy with someone who enjoys it for what it is however .

[bennyboy]

Not sure about getting them to buy the latest aviation CAD package (Catia is very nice though..), its more a case of taking an accurate ruler along to the measuring session..

 

The Heljan Hymek as well as the DP1 I mentioned earlier was pretty spot on in terms of shape imho and that didn't cost the hundreds people seem to think it should!

 

Having spent some time under a few wagons now it is a bit tricky but Heljan seem to be on a run of not doing it particularly well apart from moments of clarity. The class 15 is great in the recent releases but others haven't been great.

 

Yes, they do seem to created a reputation for making mediocre models, which I guess is partly why they are sticking to modelling some of the less well known prototypes that other manufacturers are less likely to be producing.

['CHARD]

Based on that Gerald Ratner business model, here's a transcript from the Heljan Board meeting 2010.

 

CEO: So what underwhelming models are in the pipeline for 2012 then, no more market-making Hymeks, Duffs or Scottish Sulzers I hope?

 

Head of Sales: Well no, despite the overwhelming success of the 47 notwithstanding its girth, this year we thought we'd celebrate our mediocrity and select our new releases accordingly.

 

CEO: Good idea, let's make a decidedly average model of The Fell, instead of going for the rest of the Bo-Bo Type 2 market, starting with a better tilt at the Class 24 and 25 variants Bachmann haven't tried.

 

Head of Sales: Excellent, so there's no problem signing off this business case for a reworked Playcraft NBL then, no worries...

 

I don't think any company could survive on such an ironic and counter-intuitive approach to the market.

[Guest jim s-w]

Sorry Chard

 

COMPLETELY missing your point! You dont think UK outline locos is Heljans core market do you?

 

Jim

[298]

I notice there have been a few postings regarding other Liveries, the BR Blue version &c.

 

I spoke to the Heljan Rep. from their HQ in Denmark, at their stand at the Model Rail Scotland Exhibition, about this, and asked him specifically about the BR Blue version, given it's lifespan of around 30 years from the Late 1960s to mid-1990s.

 

His answer regarding the BR Blue version. straight from the Great Dane's mouth:-

The BR Blue version would require a complete re-tooling, at an estimated cost of £0.5M (ok it may have been Euros), and that investment depended on how sales went with the current batch of liveries.

 

Not knowing exactly how they choose to tool up a loco body probably means I have little understanding of the manufacturing processes involved, but I do know 86's and unlike other classes, know there haven't been any major changes over this time period- the only ones I can think of were to the headcode boxes, headlight, and TDM/MW cables. Enen the original bogie suspension without the flexicoil springs only needs a small cutout on the lower body filling in. It's not as if the bodyside grilles or windows have changed, or they'll be re-tooling to model the smoothed fronted 86430. I'd have thought these could have been covered with separate slides for the front end to fit the main body tool, as other manufacturers have done with different locos and Heljan cover with their 47 and different front end arrangements.

 

I'm hoping it's true and Heljan would have to tool up a new body for a BR blue one, then they could produce a loco with properly raked windscreens, proportioned bodysides and correctly fitted motor blower grilles, then i'd certainly be buying a few to repaint and detail into later liveries.

[craigwelsh]

Presumably its the bodyside cutouts for the suspension that they couldn't fill in with an invisible slide for the tooling.

 

After a quick google I now know who Gerald Ratner is and what Chard was emulating but I have no idea about why!

[Jamie]

Yes, they do seem to created a reputation for making mediocre models...

(whole post implies that this is known and deemed satisfactory by Heljan)

... I don't think any company could survive on such an ironic and counter-intuitive approach to the market.

COMPLETELY missing your point! You dont think UK outline locos is Heljans core market do you?

 

Sorry Jim, Chard's point stands. It is a strange (IMO) notion that Heljan deliberately set out either to make substandard models (though there will be a commercial optimum beyond which further R+D work and expense becomes uneconomic), or picking obscure prototypes such that mistakes "won't matter". Hj won't care surely which market the model is destined for, as long as ultimately it is profitable.

 

I've so far heard only of minor faults with classes 26/27/33, Hymek, the new 15, Kestrel or Falcon. The first four are neither obscure nor greatly flawed, 33/0 aside (even then, fixable). The Clayton was held in good regard, had it not been for the motor failures in batch 1. By my reckoning, that covers the majority of the range.

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Jamie

 

I dont know what Chards point is! Of course they wouldn't diliberately set out to make a poor model but they have so chards point is what exactly?

 

Are people saying "bless 'em they tried their best - buy it anyway?" I cant believe that for a moment. Of course there is a point where R&D becomes too much the point I an others have made that repeatedly get ignored or sidetracked is that the basic shape is wrong. Its poor R&D not cheap R&D.

 

 

How many people championing this model as 'it will do' will steel feel happy if a revised model appears that shows the ones they have brought so far up? Still happy?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Jamie]

I can't further explain what I take his point to be. It was suggested/implied that Heljan set out to make sub-standard models. In his inimitable style he seems to propose this is questionable. I agree. As do you it would seem.

 

I don't think the "they've done their best, so buy it" argument holds any water either.

 

It's there and is down to the individual to reconcile price and value.

 

It's a problem I face with two key diesel types, and this thread is very reminiscent of the Bachmann 40 thread, back in the day. A model that I, with my low standards, can't quite bring myself to buy.

['CHARD]

Blimey, I pop out to borrow a cup of sugar and it gets all exciting

 

No, my point was simply a wry take on the previous poster's suggestion, that having acquired a reputation for mediocre models, it would somehow form the core of someone's future business strategy.

 

 

I'm a big fan of Heljan's - as anyone who followed my defence of their standing as a major rather than a minor UK supplier, on another thread, will recall. However, I won't defend their indefensible howlers (to me, the Class 52 cab), was massively disappointed by the Clayton debacle (ongoing), and as there's no equivalent fix that would make the 86 acceptable to you Jim, then rest assured I can totally imagine the scale of your disillusionment. But I didn't buy the 'we're crap and we know we are' suggestion, then neither did you guys, clearly. Sorted!

[Guest jim s-w]

Thanks Chard

 

I get it now - I may be slow but we get there in the end! (where have I heard that before?)

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Pennine MC]

 

No, my point was simply a wry take on the previous poster's suggestion, that having acquired a reputation for mediocre models, it would somehow form the core of someone's future business strategy.

 

 

 

Ah, that's the thing with irony, people take you all seriously and form the opposite impression you set out to give. Welcome to my world