Class 86

[reevesthecat]

I have to say I have 86233 and am delighted with it, it looks like an 86 to me ,it is a good weight with plenty of pulling power the Heljan blurb claims it will pull 15 coaches on level track. Not sure if mentioned already but the pan is a compromise between scale and ruggedness (heljans words not mine)but looks good enough for me. The lights have a nice white glow. Sorry tried to take pictures but either over or under exposed but would not be better than Gareths anyway!.

Probably the best thing I could say would be after recieving this model I wanted to rush out and buy another!!

I really hope this sells well for Heljan and does not go the same way as the 58 but there does seem a lack of enthusiasm maybe retailers on here could tell us how they are going?

By the way any recommendations re DCC, will it be too mch for a Bachmann chip?

cheers

mark

[Andy Y]

I don't want to be controversial, and I must admit I'm not all that familiar with the Cl. 86 - however I do know a cl. 86 when I see one.

 

From the pics in this topic, this offering just doesn't look right, to me. There seems to be something wrong somewhere, but I'm unable to put my finger on it. Perhaps somebody will measure one soon.

Viewed from the side they look like cl. 47s!    Surely the cab profiles are wrong.

It also appears the front windows are too small.

The paint/finish on some of the ones in Trains4u photos also seems a bit dubious.

However, as I said earlier, I'm able to recognize a class 47 when I see one, and this generally ticks all the boxes. Nice detail on the roof.

 

Personally I won't be buying any of these, as they're not relevant to my interests. Shame, because minor issues appart, it seems like a decent model. If an AL1 is ever produced then it would be a diffrent story.

 

(Please Heljan, can we have a new cl. 50, AL1, DP2, HST Prototype, and cl. 89 )

 

This post has been flagged up using the report function. You say that you don't wish to be controversial and that you aren't really familiar with the prototype yet you proceed to rubbish the product. You simply repeat the main criticism that Gareth had made of the product which is certainly of relevance to the retailer as well as the modeller. Leave it to someone who can substantiate if there are any errors please rather than trying to start some internet based witch hunt on a new product simply because you are able to use a keyboard but without any knowledge to back up your stance.

 

 

Then you go on to say it's of no interest to you and then try to start a personal wishlist. Unbelievable!

 

I've flagged this up as an indication of precisely what we don't wish to see when a product is being discussed.

 

 

[greg81]

Great post, with all those Heljan/Hornby comparison shots it really hammers home the difference between the two models. For me, the Heljan model looks like a class 86 in the condition that I best remember them. I will have to purchase the Intercity one asap, as I feel a re-number/rename project coming!

 

One other thing. It does seem odd that a RES example wasn't produced in this batch, as that would have completed the era set nicely.

[SRman]

 

By the way any recommendations re DCC, will it be too mch for a Bachmann chip?

cheers

mark

There is no reason why the Bachmann decoder 36-553 shouldn't cope with the Heljan mech, certainly based on my experience with previous Heljan models. However, I would really recommend a higher end decoder. While the Bachmann "cheapie" has worked in my class 33s, the control was not particularly smooth. I should add that I used the Bachmann decoders as a stop-gap until I could source some of my preferred ESU LokPilots. I have also found TCS decoders (M1P-UK or DP2X-UK) work very well in Heljan locos. I believe that Lenz Gold or Silver decoders would also work very well.

 

Also, DO remember to remove any capacitors. Not having seen the 86 internals I can only assume from Heljan's previous practice of including a capacitor on the top of the PCB, where it is easily seen and also easily removed. The Bachmann decoder is essentially an ESU LokPilot Basic decoder and does have Back EMF control.

 

 

[jixer]

 

There is no reason why the Bachmann decoder 36-553 shouldn't cope with the Heljan mech...

 

I have the Virgin example. On DCC-ing, there are some notable issues. The space above the DCC plug is very small indeed (i.e. the roof is very close to the plug). I've found that Lenz decoders, with their 'thick' plugs simply won't fit. I've had to use a cheap Bachmann decoder instead, with its ultra thin plug. However, what I've also found if that I've had to shorten the pins, even on that plug, as they can project down through the circuit board and interfer with the mech below, as when the body is re-attached it is essentially 'pressing down' on the circuit board/decoder plug, flexing it down - and the pins can, it would appear, contact the flywheel beneath them. It took me a while to figure that one out: model worked fine with body off and decoder installed - but mech wouldn't spin with body on and clipped home! So beware! The space contraints within this model mean you need to be careful.

 

Also... read the decoder instructions supplied with the model! You cannot site the decoder in the obvious place (because of the roof clearance issue), it only fits where Heljan recommends (i.e. over the gear towers on the 'shelf' provided).

 

Thoughts on the model in general: pity that Heljan, Hornby and Bachmann can't agree on what constitutes 'Virgin' red. There's a big colour mismatch between this loco and, say, Hornby's new Mk3 DVT. Some detail parts on my loco were either broken or missing (including some of the roof/electric detail), which was a major disappointment. And not too sure the livery application quality is quite up to the standard we've come to know and love from Heljan. Mine's got a few 'dodgy' areas, including a very fuzzy 'transition' between the red and black in one corner, that's all over the place on one of the grilles. Also, the yellow (warning panel) to black on mine is also noticeably fuzzy in two of the corners. However, overall, really very pleased with it, especially the usual super-smooth and powerful Heljan mech, which surely has to be one of the best powertrains in the business.

[Barry J]

I seem to recall reading before that the pantograph on the Heljan 86 is purely cosmetic & can't be used for current collection... can anyone confirm?

 

 

[vac_basher]

This post has been flagged up using the report function. You say that you don't wish to be controversial and that you aren't really familiar with the prototype yet you proceed to rubbish the product. You simply repeat the main criticism that Gareth had made of the product which is certainly of relevance to the retailer as well as the modeller. Leave it to someone who can substantiate if there are any errors please rather than trying to start some internet based witch hunt on a new product simply because you are able to use a keyboard but without any knowledge to back up your stance.

 

 

Then you go on to say it's of no interest to you and then try to start a personal wishlist. Unbelievable!

 

I've flagged this up as an indication of precisely what we don't wish to see when a product is being discussed.

 

Andy, are you implying I'm not entilted to an oppinion then?

I did not say the product was rubbish. I just said that to my eyes there's something "not quite right" about it - as there are with the vast majority of models. We all know that when things are scalled down compromises have to be made in regards to some dimensions.... 100% accuracy in 4mm scale is near impossible.

Neither did I say the cl. 86 is of no intrest to me. What I intended to imply was that it's irrelevant to my modelling interests (wrong geographic area). As far as the real locomotives go AC Electrics do intrest me, it's just back in the day I never had many occasions to bash/spot/photograph the real things.

I'm sincearly sorry if my comments have offended you, but I feel you've taken my post out of context.

Peace.

[Dagworth]

I seem to recall reading before that the pantograph on the Heljan 86 is purely cosmetic & can't be used for current collection... can anyone confirm?

 

 

 

Correct, the pan is a dummy only.

The leaflet that comes with the loco has the following to say about the pan

The pantograph (no electrical connection to the chassis) has been designed with handling in mind. To create an exact scale model of this component would mean that it would be very fine and would not tolerate the handling required, so we have had to reach a compromise between scale and ruggedness

 

Andi

[gronk the shunter]

I waited excitedly for a new RTR electric loco. Though my great love would be for a truly accurate RTR 76, any 25kv model loco is welcome, growing up around Crewe 86's and their ilk were like everyday friends to a train mad adolescent. But like the majority of people have said the new Heljan model isn't quite there in my eyes.

Whilst the underframe and bogie detail appears to be very good indeed, the front end "face" looks a bit off. I think it's partly the lights, the tail light housing looks far too bulky to me and the headcode panel seems too flat compared with the curvature of the front end. The real thing has a noticeable shadow under the corners. Weathering would improve that though. The top edge of the windows are also too low compared with the roof overhang I think. The bodyside grilles as everyone have said are wrong and to me they substantially change the feel of the bodyside. There's no doubt that as a model it's much better than the Hornby version, but it doesn't look more like an 86 if you know what I mean. If it cost £60 I'd accept the compromises. I have a couple of Heljan 33/0's and I know that the roof curvature is wrong, but at the price I paid I think it's a good enough model to buy, I can ignore it's minor faults and it looks convincing enough from most angles to be very acceptable. Likewise the Bachmann 25's whilst wrong are cheap enough and from the side look rat like enough to justify £40. At £95 though I want to be totally happy with the look of the 86. The oversize lights, under size windows and proud grilles mean to me it's not worth buying. I wanted the 86 to continue the trend set by Hornby's 60, but in my opinion it fails to come close and is too expensive for such inaccuracies.

 

I'll continue to wait eagerly for Bachy's 85.

[reevesthecat]

Thanks for the info re decoder ,I was just wondering as Bachmann decoder 1 amp will this be enough for the 86 as I know problems have occured in some 47's with higher amp decoder required

cheers

mark

[Guest Phil]

Thanks Gareth for your in depth photo montage of the Heljan model.

 

Very interesting indeed. I did spend a bit of time try to avoid 86/2s around the West Midlands back in the 1980s and did actually buy a Hornby model not long after 86219 was released. Although I wasn't too impressed with the chassis and bogies, the Hornby body wasn't so bad apart from the air intakes on the bodysides.

 

The Heljan model seems to have addressed the height of the grilles and they do seem correct in height, but the clash with the cantrail panelling seems a problem. the Heljan underframe and bogies look very nice, especially the compressors (or are they vacuum exhausters ?). Plus point for Heljan for the resilient wheel recreation - suitable for 86/1, 86/2, 86/4 and 86/6 but invisible enough to use anyway.

 

The "face" of the diesel or electric loco is most important to me and I'm afraid it is this which disappoints me. The windscreens do not extend high enough which is amplified by the Anglia liveried version. If the windscreens were taller, there wouldn't be so much cream / ivory showing. I'm also not totally convinced of the ratio between the cabside fixed pane and the droplight.

 

i realise the images are very cruel - exacerbating the prism effect on the glazing units, which actually detract from what is basically a very good model apart from the windows.

 

Fortunately, I don't model 25kv, but if I did I'd be a tad disappointed with the Heljan offering, but very very pleased at Bachmann's promised AL5.

 

Thanks again Gareth for the images

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Phil

 

86/1 dont have SAB resiliant wheels but class 86/3 do (They were a budget conversion to try and fix the track destruction problem). The 86/2 and 86/4 have a yaw damper on the bogie as per the Heljan model but this should be removed from the freightliner ones.

 

HTH

 

Jim

[Pennine MC]

Andy, are you implying I'm not entilted to an oppinion then?

 

 

I think the issue, Vac, is 'quality of opinion'. Entitlement is another way of saying 'rights', and if you want rights, you have to bear in mind they go hand in hand with responsibilities.

 

Just because one has an opinion doesnt mean it's obligatory or even advisable to post it, especially when the thread is already the domain of those who are better qualified to comment. I have opinions, on many things, and I'm often not slow to air them. But when it's something I'm not knowledgeable about, or something that's not really going to affect my life, I do try to button it. Like you, I dont know 86s too well, so I kept my views to myself because saying 'ooh now, there's something not quite right there' isnt very objective. It isnt a fat lot of use to anybody who *is* considering a purchase. It isnt very helpful to manufacturers and retailers who might see sales of a brand new model unfairly affected by thoughtlessly repeated rumours - just because some bloke on the Internet thought he had a right to voice an opinion (that was based on frankly not a lot). And it isnt very helpful to the image of the forum when there are people who are ever-ready to put about the flawed notion that it's populated solely by people who do nothing but froth, criticise and wishlist about RTR products.

[Southernman46]

Let them rubbish it and not buy it - there'll be more for the rest of us who are prepared to accept a bit of error and use our imagination. There are more serious things in life to fret about the height of a set of grilles on a model

 

I bought the Freightliner version today despite not having OHLE on the layout because I've see them in the "plastic" and was considerably impressed.

[Andy Y]

Andy, are you implying I'm not entilted to an oppinion then?

 

Did I say that? I don't think your opinion was of any real use to anyone though and in fact potentially injurious to some; that's what concerns me - not whether you're interested in the subject matter or not.

 

 

Think before posting please.

 

 

[Trains4U]

This is, sadly, one of the downsides of the internet and the ability for anyone to express an opinion.

 

A good customer of mine came in today who orks for Network Rail and is around 86s quite a lot.

In his opinion, the model looks just as an 86 should and that the Hornby 86 never looked right. He agreed with my sentiment that is is a bit bloated and crude in comparison.

 

The 86 is a very nice model and it does look very good and run very well - obviously many people will think that I'm bound to pay lip service as I have to sell the things, but I feel I'm fair in my criticisms when they are warranted.

 

But all it takes is one or two people to make ambiguous emotive criticisms like "It doesn't look right" in the wrong places to destroy the sales success of a particular model.

 

Take the Heljan 47 as an example - Its a little over-wide admittedly, but I've lost count of the number of customers who have said "I've heard it's..." then go on to state some criticism, then have actually gone on to buy one once I've taken the time to show them what all the fuss is about and that they are actually a pretty good model.

 

No doubt the same will happen with the 86, however the problem is, how many people will never venture to ask or even look, because 'They've heard...'? The end result being many lost sales.

[Summer_Saturday]

Just to add my two pennorth, I had a good look at the Heljan 86 at Ally Pally today and I was pleased with it. I shall definitely be getting a few once there are appropriate liveries for me.

[vac_basher]

Did I say that?

 

NO. Not really.

In fact, after posting that, I went out for the afternoon and I came to realize that I somewhat overreacted in my previous post, and it was totally uncalled for.

I think from time to time we all can get caught up in the heat of the moment.

So, I'd like to publiclly appologize for that, as I was obviously out of order there for a moment.

 

Think before posting please.

 

Agreed. I shall remember that in the future.

[vac_basher]

I think the issue, Vac, is 'quality of opinion'. Entitlement is another way of saying 'rights', and if you want rights, you have to bear in mind they go hand in hand with responsibilities.

 

Just because one has an opinion doesnt mean it's obligatory or even advisable to post it, especially when the thread is already the domain of those who are better qualified to comment. I have opinions, on many things, and I'm often not slow to air them. But when it's something I'm not knowledgeable about, or something that's not really going to affect my life, I do try to button it. Like you, I dont know 86s too well, so I kept my views to myself because saying 'ooh now, there's something not quite right there' isnt very objective. It isnt a fat lot of use to anybody who *is* considering a purchase. It isnt very helpful to manufacturers and retailers who might see sales of a brand new model unfairly affected by thoughtlessly repeated rumours - just because some bloke on the Internet thought he had a right to voice an opinion (that was based on frankly not a lot). And it isnt very helpful to the image of the forum when there are people who are ever-ready to put about the flawed notion that it's populated solely by people who do nothing but froth, criticise and wishlist about RTR products.

 

Fair play.

I totally agree.

[reevesthecat]

Hi

this is probably aimed at gareth and the other retailers on here but how are they shifting- I don't expect sales figures or anything just a general feeling. Having grown up alongside the west coast main line I am desperate for these and the 85's from Bachmann to do well and show the potential in doing the other classes of electrics. And yes I have bought one and if funds allowed the freightliner version would follow!

cheers

mark

[vac_basher]

Take the Heljan 47 as an example - Its a little over-wide admittedly, but I've lost count of the number of customers who have said "I've heard it's..." then go on to state some criticism, then have actually gone on to buy one once I've taken the time to show them what all the fuss is about and that they are actually a pretty good model.

 

I wasn't trying to dystroy the sales success (or start a "witch hunt" as Andy previous said) or knock the manufactor. What would I have to gain in doing such a thing? In my original post I was just trying to give my objective oppinion (which in hindsight I realize I could have spared)

 

Just to claify my standing, I summed up my "review" as describing it as a "decent model". I think that's the important part, because to the best of my knowledge, in 4mm scale we're never going to be able to reach perfection (take the Bachmann Deltic prototype, for example. To me that looks 100%. Even though it was laser scanned, I'm sure there must be some dimensional and/or detail errors in it, because to scale things down to 1/76th some compromises just have to be made to make it all possible)

If the cl. 86 was relevant to my modelling intrests I would certainly buy one, simply because - although maybe not perfect - it does look like a class 86 to me, and it's just much much better than the Hornby offering!

 

Now, you've mentioned the Heljan 47.

Personally I'd heard about the body width issue before I commited to purchasing. However, after having seen the pics online, it looked like a cl. 47 to me, and it was far better than the other offerings available at the time (second hand Lima or Hornby). Again, despite not being 100% perfect, I was so impressed with my first one that I went on to add half a dozen or so to my collection.... (A couple of which, if I seem to remember correctly, came from Trains4u B) )

I have not felt the need to replace my Heljan 47s even now that we have a supperior offering by Bachmann (or ViTrains, which I admit I havn't really examined too closely in the flesh, as it were) because my 47s are decent models and I'm quite satisfied with that.

[Trains4U]

Hi

this is probably aimed at gareth and the other retailers on here but how are they shifting- I don't expect sales figures or anything just a general feeling. Having grown up alongside the west coast main line I am desperate for these and the 85's from Bachmann to do well and show the potential in doing the other classes of electrics. And yes I have bought one and if funds allowed the freightliner version would follow!

cheers

mark

 

It's difficult to say at the moment. Most peole weren't expecting them so they've been a bit of a surprise. We've sold a small number so far but I expect things to pick up once more people know about them. (They only went on display today)

 

However, ours are quite expensive compared to one or two other retailers - Heljan have recently started putting RRPs on their invoices, however these are without VAT. I think one or two of the box-shifters have discounted prices based on the non-VAT SRP and are selling only £6 or £7 or so above cost!

 

I've no doubt prices will rise more in line with ours when they realise they are selling with an unsustainable margin.

Usually our prices on new Heljan are within £2-£4 of the big box shifters so this is unusual.

[reevesthecat]

Hi Gareth

thanks for that, like I said I am desperate for them to do well to encourage future releases but also a bit surprised Heljan have released so much new stuff, 14,15,86 and big class 20 in a short space of time- no time to save between models.

cheers

mark

[37023]

As soon as my local model shop rang me and said that the 86's were in i was literally round there within 10-20 mins (luckly day off work!) Now i personally think the models are spot on, there are 100 times better in my opinion than the old Hornby offerings and i dont think that any other maker will anounce one (not to in the near future anyway) there for in my mind making the Heljan offering the best 86 on the market, i couldnt really see someones opinion of "to me it just doesnt look right" being harmful to the model after all if you want a decent model then hearsay or rumours wouldnt put you off. Ive been keeping an eye on this thread since the locos were in the shops as im genuinely intrested as to what the underscales and overscales of the model are, and ive seen alot of people posting negative and unnessecery comments regarding the origional post made by vac_basher now the guy has appollogised cant we all be adult enough just to drop the subject and leave it as i feel it gives the fourm a negative attitude and it really dissopoints me for my self spoils what is otherwise a good atmosphere. Now can we all just drop the man hunt and not discuss the Heljan Class 86 instead of slating people who say things weather they think about it before hand or not, whats wrong with PMing some one and telling them its wrong than airing it for all to see!

 

If anyone has any comments im not the arguing type and i have better things to do like make models and work and id prefer not to persist with a seperate man hunt on my self, as said if anyone would like to comment on the above statement made by me please feel free to PM me but can we not stop doing it in front of all to see on a thread that is about a model not a persons comment.

 

sorry for the 2 pence worth but this forum could be such a friendlyer place with out all the man hunts that persist someones silly remark/comment/thought

 

Chris

[emdpowerrules]

Very nice chassis! I would be interested if anyone has the chance to see if the Heljan chassis fits inside the Hornby body. From the photos posted by Gareth it looks as if it should but height could well be critical. Got two Hornby 86/6 to upgrade and having seen the photos think I still prefer the Hornby body for overall appearance. Came to that conclusion after spending a while this morning looking at Gareths photos, other dealers photos, my Hornbys and my photos of real ones. Perhaps it's the real ones that look wrong.

 

Issues with the Heljan for me are the bodyside grills and roof lip over the cab front windows that I reckon ahould have a slight upward curve towards the centre as the Hornby model does. Both models require work but I'd rather hack the Hornby body.